As of this writing I have three right interesting comments from (I assume) regulars at Baldilocks. I don't want them all conflated with the original discussion I'm going to present and respond to them in separate posts.
Due to the length of this one, I'm inserting my comments in his.
People, people can't we all just get along? P6, I suspect that I'm merely volunteering for some abuse here, but you seem to be a dozen kinds of twisted up in determination to find reasons to be crappy with whitey. "white folks' race issue is they don't want to be held responsible for racism." It's not that I don't want to be held responsible, but that I am not and will not be held liable for the crimes or perceived crimes of other people's ancestors.
Based on the link you inserted to begin your comment I would have to agree with you. You are volunteering for some abuse. You are not being held personally liable. The institution, The United States of America, took specific, directed actions to obstruct and damage the social and economic infrastructure of the Black communities. The various state and local governments did the same to varying degrees in addition to complying with federally mandated obstructions. We were actively prevented from participating in the subsidization of economic growth provided "The Greatest Generation". And we still suffer the effects of this exclusion. The most recent proof can be had by considering Alan Greenspan's statement that the increased value of homeowner's equity made the recent economic downturn bearable. Black folks on the whole, largely because they were shunted to housing projects at the same time white Americans were having their home ownership subsidized, did not have that benefit. That is the source of the liability. That is the group of entities that must respond. If you identify so strongly with any of them that you feel personally attacked, well, consider yourself personally attacked.
Further, guilting white folks is getting more and more difficult as we get generations past Jim Crow. That stuff was ugly, and a lot of white folks have - largely deservedly - felt great guilt for the ill treatment of blacks. However, no one below about the age of 45 or 50 has even childhood memories of Jim Crow.
Thus, very few 20 or 30 year old white guys have EVER oppressed a black man. I know I've never been mean to someone for being black, or insisted on a black person moving to the back of the bus. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, has anyone in my family. In short, I for one am innocent, and simply refuse to accept a package of unearned guilt. There's no such thing as a "level playing field." In the classic words of Tom Petty, "everybody's had to fight to be free." In fact, we've pretty well dismantled institutional racism in America, and the big majority of people are trying to do right. However, y'all got to meet us halfway. Recognize that some of the problems come from your side of the aisle. For example, I'm sympathetic to the classic complaint about black guys having trouble getting a taxi, but do you expect taxi drivers not to notice or take into account that young black men in this country have far higher crime rates than about any other group? Do you expect them to ignore reality in front of their faces and their own physical security?
This stuff has been addressed so many times by so many people I see no reason to do more than note in passing you said it.
I gently suggest that at this point black folks are most often their own worst enemies. I hasten to add that I am probably my own worst enemy. I have not found much noticeable advantage in being white. The one real main benefit of being a heterosexual white male really seems to be that we are more held to standards. When I screw the pooch, I don't get to blame it on anyone else.
There is no advantage to being white. Being Black carries a social penalty.
The question should not be what the Republicans are doing for you, but what the Democrats are doing to you. Left wingers have spent many decades infantilizing minority groups, particularly black folks. They seem to have convinced a lot of people that they are weak and helpless, incapable of doing for themselves without the benificient help of the Democrat Party to stop the evil white man conspiracy against them.
This stuff has been addressed so many times by so many people I see no reason to do more than note in passing you said it.
"If white folks collectively can simply decide they have no responsibility for the racial problems we face then we are going to live with them forever." Not necessarily. Those what are are screwing up can straighten up and fly right. Whitey CAN'T solve the problems of the black man.
And what is the race problem YOU have? Can Black people solve it? That's what is being put on us.
'if I have to take responsibility for the ills of the Black "race"' Well, no, you, P6 do not have to take responsibility for the ills of all black people - just your own.
That's kind of you to say. You are in disagreement with the majority of society, though
By the way, what exactly would I, Al Barger, need to do or say in order be judged clean and not-racist?
And here we come to the crux of the matter. The short answer is, if you don't know there may be nothing you can do.
Finally, a few words in defense of the lovely and fierce Miss Juliette: The issue shouldn't be how any words she says might be used, but whether her words are correct.
Juliette needs no defense. And her words are correct in the same way one can say that alcohol is wet and still know better than to throw a bucket of it on an open flame.
You're attributing FAR too much power to the opinions of whitey. The success or failure of a black man trying to break out of poverty will be largely based on their own actions, and will have little to do with what Al Barger or any other white guy thinks. Further, their success will have NOTHING to do with what whitey thinks about what Baldilocks thinks.
I attribute power to the actions whitey takes under the influence of whitey's opinions. You, by attributing NO power to whitey's opinion, are categorically wrong. Um, you ARE saying whitey has no power, right? That racism among white people can not obstruct us, has no impact on us at all, right?
Let us conclude this evening's seminar on racial reconciliation by reciting together as one the wise words of Aunt Eller from "The Farmer and the Cowman" I'm not saying that I'm better than anybody else But I'll be danged if I ain't just as good
Although I disagree with much of it, this has been a helpful discussion to read - primarily because it helps show the perspective that each side is coming from. That understanding is paramount in hearing what each side is trying to convey. Here is one point from an individual white guy. I'm not pretending that I speak for the entire race, but here is what I see and why. This statement really got under my skin and it took a bit of thinking to figure out exactly why:
All Americans have a race issue. Basically, white folks' race issue is they don't want to be held responsible for racism. Black people's race issue is they don't want to experience racism.
For me, this is an offensive concept because I never consciously think of myself as part of the 'white race'. I'm just an individual person. I relate with other individual humans, who I also don't view as members of a specific race.
There are many factors which influence how I view an individual: character, respect, work-ethic. Race is such a broad and meaningless canvas that it has no value to me as far as predicting behavior or character.
From the statement quoted above, you (P6) obviously view things through the framework of race. You see your own identity as something you share with other blacks and classify me with all other whites. A racial offense against another black person becomes an offense against you - an assertion which you have every right to make. The logical flipside is that a racial offense from another white person becomes an offense from me - an assertion which I do not accept.
I'm not saying that your perspective is wrong and mine is right, I'm just observing how different our worldviews are and how that interferes with communication and relationship. If I tell you that I'm not racist, you take issue with that because you have experienced unfair treatment from other members of the group I belong to.
The above statement is true in that I do not want to be held responsible for racism. But it is not because I'm denying that racial injustice exists or that I'm endorsing it. It is because I don't see myself connected in any way with the small-minded people who mistreat others because of the color of their skin.
There's a difference between "view[ing] things through the framework of race" and understanding that one must take into account that the number of people you will encounter that do NOT do so is small enough to consider a statistical glitch.
Separate yourself from the issue for a moment.
There is no one who will deny that racism still exists, structurally and personally. Would it be intelligent of me to act as though it doesn't?
Stay separate a little longer.
Under the circumstances of extant racism, under what conditions may I safely assume I am free of it?
Bringing it back to your comment, there are two things I find interesting. You agree with the fact of my statement but dispute a reason you assume supports it. And if you didn't identify with white folks you couldn't be offended by the statement.
Sarah from trying to grok
P6, I came over from Juliette's blog, so I suppose I'm one of those white LGF people she's cavorting with. I just wanted to say that I was particularly struck by this line in your last comment:
All Americans have a race issue. Basically, white folks' race issue is they don't want to be held responsible for racism. Black people's race issue is they don't want to experience racism.
I think that's a really good way of defining the situation. However, I -- and I'm sure other white people -- sometimes feel frustrated when it seems black people claim to "experience racism" in instances where it just doesn't seem to be true.
I admit that many people do need to grow up, both black and white. But I assure you that we white people constantly walk on eggshells to try to avoid offending the black people we work with, for fear of saying something wrong and being charged with "racism". Do black people walk on any similar eggshells?
I see things through different eyes than you, but in 2004 I see white people walking on those eggshells and black people pointing a lot of fingers. That's what I see going on; perhaps you can shed some light from your point of view.
Similar eggshells? OH yeah. But we're on eggshells over the collective reactions…things like making sure the guy who's following you in the store knows you're not a shoplifter. (I actually have a story I think is pretty funny. As teenagers my brother and I were walking around the furniture section of Sears while waiting for my mom. A guy was following us everywhere and I was feeling cranky that day. But my brother handled it… he opened up his jacket quickly and grabbed the back of a recliner like he was going to shove it in there. The guard started for a second, paused, then walked away shaking his head.)
But here's the root of the problem, as I see it. Racism is a power relationship, and we think personal measures are the means of eliminating it…the "we" has no racial division in it but this one phenomenon manifests differently in Black folks and white folks because of our different starting points.
Because our issue is the experience, many Black people feel being held personally responsible for structural issues is simply the result of those same structural issues. Because your issue is the responsibility and you're convinced racism is a personal affair, you take responsibility (and feel the liberal guilt) for things that are not your personal fault.
Knowing this may not help with your eggshell situation. We are, unfortunately, living in the transition period. From a historical perspective it may look like a mere point on a time line. But the fall of the Mayan civilization is just such a point, and to the individual Mayans involved each day was really, really long.