Prometheus 6

a sterling example?

Clearly, the new American initiative at the UN, which is aiming at transforming the world into a ‘Holocaust Denial Free Zone’ has very little to do with genuine truth-seeking or an authentic interest in historical research. The Americans are there to furnish us all with the futureless nightmare of hard capitalism. They mistakenly believe that they can do so as long they restrict our vision of the past. If to be honest, It isn’t really Abe Foxman and the ADL that the Bush Administration is caring for. And it should be evident that the American decision makers could not care less about the notion of history or the truth of European Judeocide. What’s it about, then? America wants oil and Ahmadinejad has plenty of it. Not wanting to stop there, America also has as its priority stopping Iran from joining the nuclear club that they themselves lead. Yet, It is rather amusing that America - with all its fleets, airplane carriers, cruise missiles, ultimate air power and nuclear might - needs the Holocaust to win what seems to be its next war.

I am not a Holocaust scholar nor am I a historian. My primary interest is not the story of Auschwitz nor the destruction of European Jewry. But I am very interested in Holocaust politics, in the range of discourses that employ Auschwitz. I happen to ask, how come America, once the leader of the ‘free world’, finds itself engaged in ‘global thought policing’?

methinkst keeping people from lying is honorable, laudable, and sufficient...,

What's your point?

Mine is that they don't get caught up is other people's discussions about who and what they are. 

Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust is simply wrong but there is another significant point in his thesis that is always overlooked and ignored by the American media and policy makers. He correctly points that the Holocaust occurred in Europe and was carried out by Europeans. Further, it did not happen in Arab lands and Arabs did not participate in thie killing of European Jews. Consequently, he asks, why should Arab lands be taken away and Arab people be made to suffer because of what Europeans did to the Jews. 

Mine is that they don't get caught up is other people's discussions about who and what they are.

This is an excellent point that we should understand. They take their humanity for granted and refuse to relinquish the definition of who they are to others.

and don't believe that the so-called new definition of anti-Semitism is valid or worthy of emulation by Black folks.

Mine is that they don't get caught up is other people's discussions about who and what they are.

If that's your clarification, then I agree with that objective. However, the three D's set forth by Sharansky and the new resolution being pushed in the U.N. seek to censor and suppress what other people think, feel, and say...,

it's sufficient to keep people from lying about you, going beyond that as the Sharansky new anti-Semitism proposes and the new U.N. resolution asserts is a blunder we should not seek to emulate.

They take their humanity for granted and refuse to relinquish the definition of who they are to others.

Why do you suppose that a disproportionate % of the publishers and distributors of pop cultural material are among the worst perpetrators of negative depictions of Black folks?  

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. If you are stating that a large percentage of the writers, editors, publishers and owners of these media organs are Jews I have no reason to doubt your word. I always expect, as the old African pointed out, toubob to be toubob. (For those of you who suspect this term is a secret anti-Semitic slur it is not. It simply means that white folks will be white folks when their interests conflicts with ours.)

What bothers me more, however, is not the publication of this trash but black people's demonstrated willingness to purchase, absorb, distribute and discuss these types of demeaning materials rather than driving these organs out of business by refusing to spend money on them.

BTW, I don't agree at all that there is any new type of anti-Semitism emerging in America.  

don't believe that the so-called new definition of anti-Semitism is valid or worthy of emulation by Black folks.

Read the title of the post. There's generally a point in them. 

What bothers me more, however, is not the publication of this trash but black people's demonstrated willingness to purchase, absorb, distribute and discuss these types of demeaning materials rather than driving these organs out of business by refusing to spend money on them.

Total agreement - we should repudiate much of this drek, however, we're hardly the economic engine driving its production and growth in the market.  80%+ is consumed by white suburban teenagers. 

BTW, I don't agree at all that there is any new type of anti-Semitism emerging in America. 

Me either.., which is precisely why I objected to the 3D's as a sterling example worthy of emulation.  IMOHO - it is some extreme overproduction bound to backfire..,

Harold Cruse, Harold Cruse, Harold Cruse.

If I were to say more, I'd argue that which you all already know.  Germany ain't America and the use of Buffer Groups is as old as empire.  I believe Thutmosis III may have been one of the original authors of this practice back in his day.

I suppose for me, I see the situation as evolving out of unique historical circumstances on the European continent (pre-Inquisition) that are still determinant.  If an eminent Jewish collective were located (historically speaking) on the African or Asian continents, I could certainly see a clearer connection.  It is precisely the whiteness of this group - and its history within Europe which created the very institutional grounding Black folk are often called to replicate.  

The fact that whites were able to impose a military solution outside of Europe is really the bottom line.  After all, if the relocation options were strictly Germany, Russia and Poland, I doubt this collective would be held up for replication.  

As I said, everyone in this "room" knows these facts.  I, however, remain confused about what specifically black folk should be doing with which particular mechanisms to achieve which particular imperatives - following your example.  Help me out here.   

If it's of no use to you, don't use it.

Would it help if I reminded you of the Ethiopian temple that is purported to be guarding the Ark of the Covenant? Or the African Jews that fought so hard to be recognized and admitted as full citizens to Israel?

Nope. Which is why I didn't mention it.

The example is, they don't get caught up in other people's discussions about who and what they are.

Rabbi Michael Lerner says different;

The impact of the silencing of debate about Israeli policy on Jewish life has been devastating. We at Tikkun are constantly encountering young Jews who say that they can no longer identify with their Jewishness, because they have been told that their own intuitive revulsion at watching the Israeli settlers with IDF support violate the human rights of Palestinian civilians in the West Bank or their own questioning of Israel's right to occupy the West Bank are proof that they are "self-hating Jews." The Jewish world is driving away its own young.

But the most destructive impact of this new Jewish Political Correctness is on American foreign policy debates. We at Tikkun have been involved in trying to create a liberal alternative to AIPAC and the other Israel-can-do-no-wrong voices in American politics. When we talk to Congressional representatives who are liberal or even extremely progressive on every other issue, they tell us privately that they are afraid to speak out about the way Israeli policies are destructive to the best interests of the United States or the best interests of world peace—lest they too be labeled anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. If it can happen to Jimmy Carter, some of them told me recently, a man with impeccable moral credentials, then no one is really politically safe.

Rabbi Lerner's example is worthy of emulation...,

ain't a scam, I don't what is...

I've always referred to this as the "Power of the Whisper."  Most people that I know (black, white, and other) won't even say the word "Jew" or "Jewish" in their full voice.  They invariably whisper the word.  Now, in this mix is the irreducible fact that American Jews have pursued an aggressive nationalist policy and practice while eschewing that same approach for Blacks...and this antagonism is reflected most clearly among the American left (progressive and radical).  

So, this notion of folks being politically afraid to talk about Israel should reveal something fairly obvious.  The position staked out by the pro-Israeli factions are not predicated on fact, logic or morals, but on positivism.  If the bombing of the Ben Gurion Hotel has taught us nothing, it should be that bullets and blood will carry the day - because that's the path dictated by all settler colonial regimes.  It's never been any other way.

Given nulan's post, it's clear that Jews are not a monolith and have never been unified about the appropriateness of settling in Israel and displacing the Palestinians.  Hell, some even considered locating in Uganda.  (I won't even open the discussion around Israel's raid on Entebbe.)   I believe that the notion that Jews do not get caught up in other people's definitions of them reflects NOT an alienated minority status in the land of persecution, BUT a centered power broker status on an international stage.

As such, Black folk in America don't provide a useful comparative example.  However, if we were to drill down to those areas of Black live where Blacks perceive ourselves to operate with significant influence, I'd argue that there is a similar entrenched disregard for the definitions of others.  Those realms would be the pulpit...Black churches tend to have a high level of disregard for ecumenical findings, epistemologies and statements of value promulgated by white churches - especially as those religious opinions relate to Black folk.  The same can be said in athletics and music.  While Black folk have not attained the requisite level of ownership, it should be clear that folks like Damon Dash and others give less than two shits about what white folks think - and haven't budged an inch on their insistence about defining the authenticity of hip hop.  

I could delve deeper into this, but my primary issues would be 1) I don't find the Jewish example to be particularly worthy of emulation.  2) Black folk are not in a similar historical situation and 3) Jewish structural opposition to Black nationalism and its economic viability have fueled and inspired much of the short-sighted integrationist approaches which mask Jewish nationalism and make their example more attractive.  I don't submit this to necessarily reject your position - but to provide my context for interpreting what I thought you said - which may not be what you said or what you thought you said. 

You guys are funny.