Prometheus 6

Thanks for the heads up P6. I'll read the piece if for no other reasons than to figure out why a prominent sociolinguist and linguistic anthropologist would study nerdiness, of all things, for 12 years, and what "hyperwhite" means. I hope Professor Buchholtz also defines "hyperBlack," "hyperLatino," and "hyperAsian."

I'll read the piece if for no other reasons than to figure out why a prominent sociolinguist and linguistic anthropologist would study nerdiness, of all things, for 12 years

I think nerds are as worthy of study as any other in-group. Maybe more so since they are playing a significant role in our current transitional society.

I hope Professor Buchholtz also defines "hyperBlack," "hyperLatino," and "hyperAsian."

Why should that even come up?

This is interesting...though I admit that there definitely a strong tinge of 'Revenge of the Nerds' in our new tech industries. The Geeks Shall Buy The Earth and all....

After I learn more, I might agree that nerds "are as worthy of study as any other in-group." I don't know enough about how Bucholtz defines 'nerd'; I don't think I've ever seen a robust social science definition for the term. And, I don't know what the other "in-groups" are, so, at this time, I can't really make a judgment call about whether the nerd in-group would be as worthy of study as other in-groups. Perhaps my knowledge in the area of nerds or in-groups, as social phenomena, is deficient. I hope the article will help me fill in some gaps, and help me figure out why Bucholtz believes her nerd research is valuable, or valuable enough to cause her to take time away from her other research interests.

One reason why I'd like Bucholtz to define hyperBlack, hyperLatino, and hyperAsian is I may have some difficulty understanding what hyperwhite means if the attributes of a hyperwhite individual would not be described in the context of or compared with non-hyper and non-white individuals. I might want to know why she believes the term 'hyper' is insufficient; why did she believes she needed to add 'white'. And, I might want to know more about why the hyperwhite is nerdiest, as opposed to the hyperBlack, the hyperLatino, or the hyperAsian. 

You'll have all your questions answered.

as contrasted with your standard issue dopaminergic big hump of the curve neurotypicals. neither category is anywhere remotely as interesting as folk from the formerly dominant schizophrenic end of the spectrum (neuroarchaic)

"Neurotypical" (or "NT") is a neologism used to describe people whose neurological development and state are consistent with what most people would perceive as normal in their ability to process linguistic information and social cues.^[1] While originally coined among the autistic community as a label for non-autistic persons,^[2] the concept was later adopted by both the neurodiversity movement and the scientific community.^[3][4][5]

Bucholtz's claim of hyperwhiteness is something most nerds would flatly reject. Lack of preoccupation with social cues is a badge of pride, and its appropriation as "hyperwhite" is simply mistaken. On the contrary, hyperwhiteness is more accurately characterized by an excessive preoccupation with social cues.

The rabbit-hole of exhaustive insider examination of these issues starts here. Enjoy!!!

The problem I have with her conclusions (as summarized in the NYT article, already available online) is that she's taking things that are superficially similar to each other and assuming that they have the same cause. Nerds speak "properly" because they're bookish, and as such, they base their pronunciation of things upon the written word, not the spoken word. A nerd would never say, "Yo, I didn't AXE you," because nerds' friends (books) don't talk that way. (On the other hand, I'm sure we've all met nerds who speak in fake British accents.)  Also, because they focus on their brainly pursuits, they also tend to miss out on the kind of athleticism that is important in stereotypical black culture -- to be blunt: they can't dance or play basketball.

On the other hand, it's true that nerds tend to be disproportionately nonblack. Blacks are discouraged both within our culture and without, from rebelling against the roles that society has assigned to us. Like women in Muslim societies we tend to go along with the plan that relegates us to a lesser role, even though is ultimately detrimental to us. Even so, there are plenty of black nerds (I salute you Tay Zonday), but in general, they are bound to have even less support than the already belittled white nerd. After all, society says smart + black can't even exist in the same spacetime, and if it does momentarily, then like Colin Powell's career, it eventually falls pray to self-annihilation. The easy thing to do is to look at the black nerd as a sort of eunuch or mule, an evolutionary dead end. Because God forbid they should multiply, and then it won't be so easy to pretend  innate stupidity is the reason for blacks' second class citizenship.   Revealingly, in popular TV/movie culture, smart, well-educated black guys are typically socially unbalanced ("nerds"), whereas smart white guys are expected to be normal, and being a nerd is an aberration.

So the bottom line is that nerds aren't trying to be "white," they're just trying to be "smart." If we accept that white equals smart and that white ways are smart ways, then shame on us.

Here's the article.

Though Bucholtz uses the term “hyperwhite” to describe nerd language in particular, she claims that the “symbolic resources of an extreme whiteness” can be used elsewhere. After all, “trends in music, dance, fashion, sports and language in a variety of youth subcultures are often traceable to an African-American source,” but “unlike the styles of cool European American students, in nerdiness, African-American culture and language [do] not play even a covert role.” Certainly, “hyperwhite” seems a good word for the sartorial choices of paradigmatic nerds. While a stereotypical black youth, from the zoot-suit era through the bling years, wears flashy clothes, chosen for their aesthetic value, nerdy clothing is purely practical: pocket protectors, belt sheaths for gadgets, short shorts for excessive heat, etc. Indeed, “hyperwhite” works as a description for nearly everything we intuitively associate with nerds, which is why Hollywood has long traded in jokes that try to capitalize on the emotional dissonance of nerds acting black (Eugene Levy saying, “You got me straight trippin’, boo”) and black people being nerds (the characters Urkel and Carlton in the sitcoms “Family Matters” and “The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air”).

I was still sifting through other references to bucholtz and her scrubbly and pathetic excuse for work when you posted the link.  This one snippet is ALL I need to see to know that this ass-clown deserves to be shot with hot pee;

Nerdiness, she has concluded, is largely a matter of racially tinged behavior.

I take it you think of yourself as a nerd.

If nerdiness, as Bucholtz suggests, can be a rebellion against the cool white kids

It is....,

and their use of black culture,

neurotypical appropriation of Black argot has nothing whatsoever to do with nerd rejection of neurotypicality. only the most solipsist illogic would associate the former with the latter..,

be kind of like saying P6 rejects david duke because duke occasionally wears a lime green leisure suit..., just phukking ridiculous.

I take it you think of yourself as a nerd.

nope.

I'm not autistic spectrum at all - but with a measured IQ of 187 - I've spent the better part of my life socializing and working with the most hardcore of the hardcore...., I'm actually on the opposite end of the neurological spectrum.  

I take it you think of yourself as a nerd.

To be honest, yes.

I have never ever been considered 'cool'. Not in elementary, high school, or college. I'm not a hard-core one, because I've hung around those. I guess in terms of Black people, I'd be considered hard-core. I never considered nerds to be hyperwhite; they were in their own universe. I consider 'cool' folks to be hyperwhite.

there are about a half dozen Black male and perhaps three female nerds associated with the learning center. a couple have become nationally famous for their obsessive work in an obscure field - one of whom you've cited at least 3-4 times in the last couple years - without ever knowing that he's here and puts in his work at the DLC.

of the kids I work with - there's one 5th grade boy who's off the charts intellectually and his father's a hardcore too, this boy is stereotypically indifferent to normal social cues, but he's also physically larger than his classmates and tends to fearlessly and aggressively manipulate many of his NT classmates in sometimes purposefully mean ways.

what I've observed thus far is that without exception, our high IQ autistic spectrum kids are reasonably well-liked and nicely integrated into their social fabric - I'm certain these stereotypes are wrong about the status quo socialization of nerds in this community - and I'm inclined to believe that they have little truthful bearing on what happens elsewhere either.

I guess in terms of Black people, I'd be considered hard-core.

uh, no...,

hard core is hard core, period. 

Bucholtz is sewing mad confusion...,  

to Black people is different than what it is to Hispanics, Asians and Whites.

 I think hardcore Asian and White  are similar.

And, what's considered hardcore with Hispanics and Blacks is similar.

Now that I've read the NYT article, and struggled to keep myself awake while doing so, I've just about lost interest in nerdiness research and hyperwhiteness. I believe, for the most part, people choose their personae or their social faces based on their personality dispositions, their phenotypical traits, and interactions with their social environments. If a very smart person is also sexually attractive, very athletic, or charismatic, then he probably won't choose the nerd persona, though he could choose it. If a very smart person is well below average in most or all things physical and social, then he is more likely to find a home and a means by which to build some self-esteem in the nerd persona. Nothing I read about Bucholtz's research led me to second guess these beliefs. Perhaps, nerdiness or hyperwhiteness, as a function of social incompetence and/or physical ineptness, is what Bucholtz is studying. However, unless her research will help us figure out ways to prevent hyperwhites or nerds or pseudo-hyperwhites or failed-nerds from turning on the social environments that marginalize them, venting their sexual or social frustrations by way of murderous rampages at high schools or universities, then I’ll probably have to categorize this nerdiness research as "almost interesting" and "not very useful." There's just not much illuminating or useful stuff to discover here in my opinion. I think I got this one pretty much figured out. If I weren't tall, somewhat charismatic, pretty athletic, and easier on the eyes than the average Joe, then I might have poured every ounce of my life energy into building a persona based on my logical-mathematical or linguistic skills. I would have dunked fewer basketballs and sacked fewer quarterbacks. I would have chased and been chased by fewer pretty ladies. I would have been invited to and would have attended fewer parties. I would have spent much less time on all that fun and academically uneconomical stuff. And, I would have been bored to sickness. So, I'm glad my circumstances didn't all but force me to choose the nerd persona. Getting to experience that fun stuff first-hand, in a teenaged and twenty-something body, was worth the opportunity costs of not reading a few extra books or not mastering a few extra mathematical concepts during my teens and early twenties. I'm happy with the choices I made, even if I am a little stupider than I would have been. And I'm happy with being clueless and slow enough to believe combinatorics isn't a piece of cake and smart and creative enough to be able to occasionally have my cake and eat it too.

However, unless her research will help us figure out ways to prevent hyperwhites or nerds or pseudo-hyperwhites or failed-nerds from turning on the social environments that marginalize them, venting their sexual or social frustrations by way of murderous rampages at high schools or universities, then I’ll probably have to categorize this nerdiness research as "almost interesting" and "not very useful."

generations of hardcore Black folks who matriculated from the most difficult science and engineering programs in the world and who work daily in the engineering and hard sciences world would kindly beg to differ. whatever personal issues led you to an external and an internalized self-assessment as uncool, these issues have nothing whatsoever to do with the objective reality of Black hardcore which is peer reviewed by white hardcore, asian hardcore, mexican hardcore etc....,

hardcore is wherever folks signify via mathematics and the C programming language - international, worldwide.

you may also want to rethink publicly expressing bigotry of lowered expectations, that shit is decidedly uncool and must've been in part why I took you for an alias of Colin Spears aka dragon horse at blackprof some months ago....,

I believe, for the most part, people choose their personae or their social faces based on their personality dispositions, their phenotypical traits, and interactions with their social environments. If a very smart person is also sexually attractive, very athletic, or charismatic, then he probably won't choose the nerd persona, though he could choose it. If a very smart person is well below average in most or all things physical and social, then he is more likely to find a home and a means by which to build some self-esteem in the nerd persona.

liars, grifters, and thespians select their personae. folks who pay little or no heed to social cues may in fact have little or no genuine interest in social cues.

Neurodiversity is an idea that asserts that atypical (neurodivergent) neurological wiring is a normal human difference that is to be tolerated and respected as any other human difference.^[1] The concept of neurodiversity was created by some autistic individuals and people with related conditions, who believe that autism is not a disorder, but a part of who they are, and that curing autistic people would be the same as destroying their original personalities and replacing them with different people.

you may also want to rethink publicly expressing bigotry of lowered expectations, that shit is decidedly uncool and must've been in part why I took you for an alias of Colin Spears aka dragon horse at blackprof some months ago....,

 I didn't see it as lowered expectations. In all groups, aren't there those at the edges? Some who swim in the shallow end of the pool - a minority, those that swim totally at the deep end - a minority, and then those that swim in the the middle. All of them are in the pool, but the ones at the deep end are different than those in the shallow end. To the outsider looking in, they're all in the pool and they don't distinguish among them.

"liars, grifters, and thespians select their personae."

No doubt. And, I suspect the best liars, grifters, and thespians are able to fool most of people most of the time.

"folks who pay little or no heed to social cues may in fact have little or no genuine interest in social cues."

If there are folks who truly pay no heed, then they are surely a rare breed indeed. And, I suspect most of those who could afford to pay no heed whatsoever are either born very wealthy or they die as poor hermits. I've met a few folks who claimed they paid little or no heed. They claimed they believed they were here to work on their inner-selves, living the lives of socially detached philosophers. They told me they cared little or not at all about the ways the philosophically inept and benighted members of their society perceived them. But, these folks often dropped hints that they suffered a lil' bit from what the Greeks would have called philotemia (love of honor) or philodoxia (love of notoriety) as they toiled in order publish their best ideas or passionately sought out opportunities to flaunt their eruditions or demonstrate their argumentative powers in exchange for praise, honors, titles, or other social rewards.

If there are folks who truly pay no heed, then they are surely a rare breed indeed. 

I haven't met anyone like that who was still capable of living in society.

Philotemia sounds like a cool name for a blog. But folks would call me Phil them...

If there are folks who truly pay no heed, then they are surely a rare breed indeed.

Read up on autistic spectrum "disorders" Ed. There are hosts of people who genuinely don't register the social preoccupations in which your own sensibilities are steeped. Within that broader "community" are folks who are well aware of their and your respective propensities. (think Duboisian dual-consciousness)

Interestingly, autistic spectrum diversity is familiar to most and somewhat better tolerated in the normatively dopaminergic culture, thus the perjorative "nerd". Schizophrenic spectrum folks OTOH are much much rarer and far less normatively tolerated in the dopaminergic culture. Consequently, high-functioning representatives of this neurotype are comparatively fewer and further between. In Asia, Africa, and Latin America - this neurotype is more prevalent and far better integrated into normative society where sundry cultural artifacts attest its presence (saints, gods, polytheistic depictions) - I'd guess that the highest functioning openly s-spectrum westerner whose work you'd possibly intersect at some point is Matti Pitkanen Mahndisa has referenced and linked Matti on a few occasions...,

I haven't met anyone like that who was still capable of living in society.

are you personally acquainted with anyone who has been given a prescription for Paxil?

As a linguist, Bucholtz understands nerdiness first and foremost as a way of using language.

and all that follows from this fundamental (and frankly unpardonable) error is some hot ghetto mess f'real...., 

are you personally acquainted with anyone who has been given a prescription for Paxil?

Not to my knowledge. And truth (getting ready for heat here...) that they need a drug to get by does not support the idea that they are capable.

and all that follows from this fundamental (and frankly unpardonable) error is some hot ghetto mess f'real....,

It's not an error, it's a choice.

You're really intense about this, man. 

starship prometheus has crossed the boundary of nulanian galactic space...,

My cognitive activism predates my Black partisanship. In fact, the former gave rise to the latter when I realized that racism is the most conspicuous and glaring symptom of extreme neurotypicality....,

Not to my knowledge. And truth (getting ready for heat here...) that they need a drug to get by does not support the idea that they are capable.

no heat magne, I expected this answer and interpret it to mean that you don't exist in a very neurodiverse social sphere.

As for the "getting by" characterization, I'd be willing to bet you a dollar that had you attended elementary school during the 1990's that somebody would've considered it in your best interests to take Ritalin.

Folks with so-called social anxiety disorders "need a drug to get by" about exactly the same way that beyonce needs to dye her hair blonde in order to be attractive....,

As for the "getting by" characterization, I'd be willing to bet you a dollar that had you attended elementary school during the 1990's that somebody would've considered it in your best interests to take Ritalin.

Nah. They liked me because my reading and math scores were five years ahead of standard. Had a teacher in the 5th grade that found me uppity, but because of my educational history that worked out to be her problem.

starship prometheus has crossed the boundary of nulanian galactic space...,

Not really. We've had the discussion and nothing much has changed on either side. I'm just picking up on minor conversational points.

Nah. They liked me because my reading and math scores were five years ahead of standard. Had a teacher in the 5th grade that found me uppity, but because of my educational history that worked out to be her problem.

uh.., that was then - back even before Flagg Brothers came into dubious vogue and thus long before it became fashionable to medicate boys into the manageable hump of the bell curve. 

We've had the discussion and nothing much has changed on either side.

au contraire, during this period I have fully explored, integrated, and embraced Black partisan activism - you still haven't met anybody whose atypical mentality challenges your assumptions about what is and is not psychologically discretionary.
 

Sounds like you're ready to take the lead.

Go for yours.

Interesting conversation. Sorry I missed it.

A few quick points:

Let's take note that the article never associates high intelligence with nerdiness. But it has crept into our thread, and will undoubtedly come up in all discussions on this topic. That's one place the article falls short: making nerdiness so one-dimensional. It is clearly not just a matter of using outmoded grammar/vocabulary and wearing bland but functional clothing.

If pressed for a definition of a nerd, I would say it is a type of intellectual, one that isolates him/herself socially and culturally, despite and/or against the norms of the surrounding community. It really has nothing to do with whiteness or blackness. The "hyperwhite" nerd is simply one type of nerd. The trenchcoat mafia were not nerds--no intellectualism.

Consider that "hyperwhite" nerds distinguish themselves by speaking latin and outmoded english, and dress in conservative, but functional clothing. I think that only white nerds can be hyperwhite, and the true black analog to the white nerd would be an extreme afrocentrist, not an Urkel. And as I think about this subject, I remember that I donned a dashiki (in my wardrobe rotation) in the last years of high school and the first year of college. I sat in AP European History and AP Calculus with a dashiki. There is a picture of me (in college) in a physics lab at a national laboratory wearing a dashiki. LOL, a dashiki and an "africa" medallion. (This was all around in the early nineties, when BET actually played uplifting hiphop, like BDP, X Klan, Brand Nubian, and public enemy. A lot of my peers were influenced by the afrocentrism, but not many took it to the dashiki/medallion level. AND read Ellison, Hughes, and other works.)

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At first glance of this work via the article, it seems to me to be another case of white folk's intellectual masturbation and usual white narcissism. It's probably a mediocre work, because it's just another reaffirmation of the meme of the day: "white folks: good language, modest and practical clothing; black folks: broken english, garish clothing, dancing, basketball".

As the article points out, true (Mainstream american) white culture incorporates the cultures of other racial and ethnic groups. And, another place the article falls short is by associating only those aspects that whites have chosen to steal incorporate from blacks as "black culture". Black culture isn't all about basketball and dancing. I don't have to tell you folks that there is a long burning flame of intellectualism in the black community, despite nearly continuous attempts to stamp it out.

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Ultimately hyperwhite nerdiness, IMO, is outlived past high school.

A "hyperwhite" nerd in high school is simply socially inept in college. I can't help but feel that the authors are still carrying some flag and standard that most of us (of any of those shallow social groupings in high school) discarded with our yearbooks. Like a jock re-living that high school touchdown that noone gives a damn about anymore, or the popular homecoming queen that is now an indistinct woman, the high school "hyperwhite" nerd is almost a caricature of what a mature mind sees as an intellectual. The standards of intellectualism in high school fall far short of the standards in any collegiate/post-collegiate/serious setting.

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Lastly. I was socially awkward in junior and high school, and have been called a nerd in those settings. But many people were socially awkward in high school, not just so-called nerds. It's called adolescence. Most people adjust and get on with life. To make some kind of crusade or movement out of "nerdiness" is over the top.

A "hyperwhite" nerd in high school is simply socially inept in college. I can't help but feel that the authors are still carrying some flag and standard that most of us (of any of those shallow social groupings in high school) discarded with our yearbooks.

Did you read what the author of the article, as oppsoed to the research, is up to? In italics, at the end.

Yep. When I say "authors", I meant Nugent and Bucholtz.

"The Story of My People", LOL. What's next, "Tweens: The Exodus"?

For my part, I have no doubt Bucholtz saw stuff that made her research sound reasonable when the words are disconnected from their semantic history. This kind of reminds me of how crackers became hackers. 

But you gotta see...these folk really are self selecting and self-identifying as nerds. You ever check out nerdcore? It has the form of commercial rap...which puts the lie to the non-appropriation of Black culture thing, don't it? Search for it on YouTube.

I got this weird thought:

1. Socially inept folk focus on tech
2. Socially inept folk make bags of money
3. Socially inept folk become socially desireable due to being coated with the filthy lucre
4. Social ineptitude is romanticized in order to make desiring it acceptable

Four thoughts.

You still got your dashiki collection?

Let's take note that the article never associates high intelligence with nerdiness. But it has crept into our thread, and will undoubtedly come up in all discussions on this topic.

In many regards, IQ is a taboo subject. The last group of people I'd ever elect to associate with are mensa-ites. Yet, the topics and projects in which I take an interest essentially impose a degree of segregation that has to be resisted.

If pressed for a definition of a nerd, I would say it is a type of intellectual, one that isolates him/herself socially and culturally, despite and/or against the norms of the surrounding community.

Kwestin. You see folks isolating themselves, or, do you see folks with interests and pre-occupations that are not widely shared - pursuit of said interests giving rise to a degree of normative social isolation?

1. Socially inept folk focus on tech
2. Socially inept folk make bags of money
3. Socially inept folk become socially desireable due to being coated with the filthy lucre
4. Social ineptitude is romanticized in order to make desiring it acceptable

Highly intelligent folk focus on tech, wash, rinse, repeat.

See, I have previously waxed romantic about an idealized 1957 Black world - picture Rage In Harlem. In this imaginary world, folks from across the neurodiverse spectrum are compressed by apartheid into a cohesive community of interest. This undivided community of interest gives rise to high Black culture.

The ONLY way I can see to harness some of that unitive zest in the modern era, is to specifically and consciously bring folks together in a Schuylerian way to Work on projects and technologies with commercial promise. Think about the level of neurodiversity one finds in say, Microsoft. The common objective of increasing shareholder value takes all kinds and precipitates a creative collaboration with unparalleled value, an infinite game if you will.

Highly intelligent folk focus on tech, wash, rinse, repeat.

...which would have been mentioned if intelligence were what made the nerds attractive. It's the money that did it, and though the knowledge was necessary for that is just isn't what people see. 

this whole post is about the projection of idiosyncratic NT stereotypes and all that follows from the same.  the conjunction of social ineptitude and technical competence rather than high intellect and technical competence smells suspiciously like the functional equivalent of cognitive racism.

Ultimately, intelligence IS what makes the coincidentally socially inept nerd attractive. Otherwise, wouldn't you expect to see Beauty and the Homeless, or Beauty and the Downs Syndrome rather than what actually gets played out which is Beauty and the Geek? (there is of course Flava of Love.., where I think the $$$ argument may in fact be sound)

Look, these aren't my stereotypes, so I have no skin invested in that game - I do, however, find it hilarious how uptight and irrational people get about the taboo of intelligence given the conspicuous lack of taboos concerning other human attributes.    

cognitive racism.

Nigga, please.

this whole post is about the projection of idiosyncratic NT stereotypes and all that follows from the same.

Well, yeah.

(Without accepting the NT terminlogy) 

characterization of the conditions comprising neurotypicality required an explicit statement that said characterization is not a racist hypothesis, i.e., that those identified as suffering characteristic and plainly discernable cognitive defects did not comprise a separate human race.

Folks who argue that nerdiness is somehow racially tinged have already stepped waaaay into it, and folks who argue that social ineptitude is a primary expression of higher intelligence have done very much the same.

(Without accepting the NT terminlogy)

Funny, getting folks to acknowledge the existance of white privilege involves very similar kinds of denials and objections...,

Like I said, nothing much has changed.

one of the most personally illuminating bits of information I've ever come across in the vein of what the body do - taking my cue from your quantum griot repost - is the fact that social ostracism registers on the brain almost exactly like visceral pain. consequently, the cumulative and long term psychophysiological effects of social ostracism are considerable - and these give rise to a whole host "choices" made in the subconscious construction of an interpersonal user interface, i.e., a persona.

insert the Maslow hierarchy at will here...,

to the extent that folks with innately underdeveloped capacity to register social cues fail to do so, the likelihood of their becoming ostracized is greatly increased and a pernicious feedback loop results.

insert the Maslow hierarchy at will here...,

I found the monster zero (M0) hypothesis to have tremendous explanatory power for the establishment, proliferation, and endurance of the cognitive error of racism (not as an historical or political/economic fact) but as a psychosocial and cultural fact. It certainly goes further than just saying that racists are evil or subhuman as much as we may be inclined to draw that moral characterization. Racism proliferates thanks to a process of socialization in which cognitive error is socially accepted and encouraged.

(such a system is frankly very powerfully described by the perjorative NT or neurotypical)

I'm just sayin..., it's an intriguing filter/lens through which the whole hot mess can be perceived...,

I'm sure if I dig through some boxes I could find a dashiki or two....

In many regards, IQ is a taboo subject.

 How so?

Kwestin. You see folks isolating themselves, or, do you see folks with interests and pre-occupations that are not widely shared - pursuit of said interests giving rise to a degree of normative social isolation?

Both. This "nerd" thing is highly contextual. For the "hyperwhite" nerd, it is a matter of self-isolation. For many black nerds, it is the opposite.

The ONLY way I can see to harness some of that unitive zest in the modern era, is to specifically and consciously bring folks together in a Schuylerian way to Work on projects and technologies with commercial promise. Think about the level of neurodiversity one finds in say, Microsoft. The common objective of increasing shareholder value takes all kinds and precipitates a creative collaboration with unparalleled value, an infinite game if you will.

I don't know what you mean by Schuylerian, but the overall idea of creating a profit-geared entity whose economic output is independently generated, and placed in service of the black community is an idea that I like. It doesn't have to be some sexy tech company, either.

07 30 07

Cnulan: Why do you think Matti might have a schizoaffective disorder or personality type? I am curious. After reading more about his life experiences, it seems as though he was shy and somewhat alienated. But then perhaps we have that in common. I was never really shy, but never quite fit in anywhere either...In high school I kicked it with immigrants, Nerds, Cowboys and everyone, yet I never really felt like I belonged. Thus, I cherish the friendships that I have.

Matti's work is quite elegant and at times so dense as to be almost incomprehensible, but he is saying something. What say you? I am so curious because you think like a close packed hexagonal lattice- the tightest packed elementary solid state structure, and sometimes I havta read your stuff over and over again, much like Matti's:)

I don't know what you mean by Schuylerian

Oh God, don't get him started again.

Both. This "nerd" thing is highly contextual. For the "hyperwhite" nerd, it is a matter of self-isolation. For many black nerds, it is the opposite.

So what do they both have in common that you call them both "nerds" (keeping in mind that not all nerds have technical skills)? 

1. Intellectual (tech or no)
2. Social Isolation (self-imposed or externally imposed)

I never saw social isolation. I saw nerds hanging with other nerds.

And now nerds are seen positively.

I gotta tell you, watching paradigm shifts is fascinating. 

By social isolation, I mean social isolation from everyone except other nerds.

And nerds are seen positively? By who exactly? The authors of the books; or the general population?

In many regards, IQ is a taboo subject.

How so?

Obviously historically it has its origins in the work of racist social darwinists. So it's been suspect from the word go. When you also include the fact of how data was fudged by some of the pioneers to support their hypothesis, it's had a shady history throughout. 

Net of its dubious origins and pseudo-scientific and ideologically motivated practitioners - as a thing in itself, psychometry is not an inherently bad or suspect area. i.e., the human psyche has measurable attributes - however - it's really really difficult to focus on those net of the ideological abusers of psychometric practices. 

I believe that the continuing rapid evolution of fMRI and other objective measure of brain function will rapidly refine psychometry and bring it up to speed as an objectively valid area of research and practice. 

The discussion of differences in general is controversial. Most folks practice a ridiculous double standard when it comes to biological differences. F'zample, speed, muscularity, height, leaness, and a whole host of other biologically determined and environmentally expressed differences provoke little or no controversy because their phenotypic expression is obvious.

OTOH - when you go to the non-obvious differences, i.e., those not apparent to the naked eye, folks begin to equivocate and want to pretend that objectively measurable differences are strictly "ideological", cultural, "environmental" - and that's some bullshit all day long as far as I'm concerned.

By the results-oriented section of the mainstream population...the guys who value money over whatever else.

Started during the dot-com boom, when you had 18 year old webmasters making 80K. Seriously. And the paradigm shift continues. The folks who make money MUST be attractive in a society where profit is the highest acknowledged good.

Why do you think Matti might have a schizoaffective disorder or personality type? I am curious.

His great experiences..., and I didn't say that his location on the spectrum was disordered, simply that it was classically on the spectrum, as is mine. I worked in a clinical setting with folks on the disordered reaches of the spectrum - so I do know exactly whereof I speak - even these folks whose experience of uncontrolled auditory hallucinations and other "delusional" (disordered) symptoms made normative social life next to impossible - these poor devils routinely expressed perceptual capabilities so far beyond the normal range that many folks would consider them paranormal.

This state continued for several days, perhaps for a week, I do not actually remember, and during it I lived in a very concrete manner through many archetypal ideas. First came the idea of self reference, which I found later from the 'Gödel, Escher, Bach' of Hofstadter, one of the finest books I have ever read (I read it five times!). I literally experienced myself as being a computer sitting at it's own terminal. I wrote in my mind questions for this super human computer and saw the questions written in the virtual monitor. The computer wrote the answer immediately. Either directly or in oracle like manner. I realized that I have become in contact with what I called Great Mind and I began to make questions. How long I live was of course one of the first questions. The answer was endless series of numbers running and running! Of course, I asked about the importance of TGD, my great work! There was only a silence, perhaps this was godly diplomacy of the Great Mind!

Later I realized that it was not necessary to write anything on this virtual monitor: I just made the question in my mind. This realization made me wonder whether this someone with whom I was discussing was really separate from me. Perhaps in some mysterious manner I am asking these questions from myself! So, perhaps I am in some sense really God myself or have just become a God. Perhaps we all are Gods! Loneliness had been the central element of my life and I somehow realized that Gods are probably very lonely beings. I asked if we are doomed to be always alone. The answer was oraclelike:'You are a God!(:-). The '(:-)' tries to express the amused tone of the answer. Only quite recently I realized that this what I experienced must be more or less identical with the Atman=Brahman experience of Eastern religions.

Mahndisa, you've written at some length about your grandmother. I'm wondering if like my grandmother she ever said something to you to the effect of, "are you talking to yourself? - that's alright, just as long as you don't answer yourself" - this is something that's commonplace with children. The wonderful and routinely observable thing about children is the fact that their identities have not become culturally fixed into the named singleton self-talker. Moreover, they've not yet become robotized by inane peacock/peahen NT conventions. And lastly, it's still ok for them to routinely experience auditory hallucinations of "imaginary friends" and other such normatively archaic cognitive occurrences.

As an adult, Matti very obviously experienced a profoundly altered state of consciousness in which something other than the language construct called Matti began answering him. I've had this experience for years myself, and have grown to fully appreciate it for precisely what it is, no fear, no disordered symptoms, etc..., In fact, its cognitive speed and power is so much greater than the named language construct Craig (what I might call a formatory apparatus, mask, or "talking meat robot") that I have come to defer to and to rely upon it for all consequential matters. In the old days, I think this is what they mean't very literally by one's "genius".

One of my favorite pop cultural depictions of the "genius" construct is in the movie Fight Club. Call it Tyler Durden if you will. Which leads me to a kwestin for you. You've written about having a hot temper that has led you on occasion to throw down or to come within a hairs-breadth of doing so. On those occasions, can you clearly recall whether it was the conventional ordinary waking state Mahndisa that was running the show, or, when the adrenaline commenced to flowing, time slowed down, etc..., all the wonderful typical qualia that go with fight/flight arousal - was it something different inside of you that began to call the shots? Something which, if given voice, might have a personality all its own and clearly distinct from your ordinary waking persona?

Matti's work is quite elegant and at times so dense as to be almost incomprehensible, but he is saying something. What say you?

Oh but hells-to-the-yes!!!! Matti's saying a very great deal and he's by no means alone - there are some other equally interesting, fully qualified, high-functioning alchemists violating prevailing scientistic consensus with their explorations.

I came across TGD a couple years after I first encountered the Penrose-Hameroff model of consciousness - which model has served as the basic launching point and frame of reference around which I've organized a great deal of my own thinking on the subject.

07 31 07

Hello Cnulan:

I shall answer your questions, although I may be impaling myself in some sense, no one has ever really probed me in this fashion and I have thusly come to appreciate your way of thinking:

1.Mahndisa, you've written at some length about your grandmother. I'm wondering if like my grandmother she ever said something to you to the effect of, "are you talking to yourself? - that's alright, just as long as you don't answer yourself.

Well, that expression sounds familiar, but I cannot recall my Grandma Jo saying that to me. Yes, to this day I talk to myself and sometimes answer myself too. My sister once was in the car with me and laughed her ass off because she said I had an entire conversation about some mundane task. I told her that I just had to orally reason out what I was going to do and thought nothing of it.

2.Moreover, they've not yet become robotized by inane peacock/peahen NT conventions

heheheh I love this site; I had never seen it but boy oh boy can I relate in many ways! And thanks for clarifying whether or not existing in this this schizoaffective spectrum means that one has an inherent disorder.

3.On those occasions, can you clearly recall whether it was the conventional ordinary waking state Mahndisa that was running the show, or, when the adrenaline commenced to flowing, time slowed down, etc..., all the wonderful typical qualia that go with fight/flight arousal - was it something different inside of you that began to call the shots? Something which, if given voice, might have a personality all its own and clearly distinct from your ordinary waking persona?

On the last question I am unsure. However, when I have gotten BEYOND angry, as I call it- I am almost outside of myself. My motions are so fast they seem slow and my voice feels like an echo. There was a fight I was involved with in high school and I recall yelling and screaming at this girl while I whipped her ass. However, I don't recall everything I said or did. Some say that I had her on the ground and was kicking her, while others said that I turned into something they have never seen before. The Black girls who gave me shit all the time because of this acting white bs NEVER messed with me again after that. I must say that when I have gotten that angry in my life, it seems as though I was imbued with superhuman strength.  God blessed me with natural athleticism, although I am overweight now, I can still pick up my 225lb cousin who is a muscle man! When I am exceedingly angry, I have been able to literally pick people up and throw them- don't ask me how.

Regarding Matti's streaming of consciousness, I have been there, though not nearly as socially isolated. For some strange reason, I have always excelled at things like speech and debate and have been able to schmooz when necessary, although those things take a lot out of me.  There was a time when I did a speech event called impromptu, which I excelled in. Yet, often I could not quite recall what I talked about when it was over. It seemed as though I would surrender myself to a certain aspect of myself that usually lied dormant unless activated. Upon completed of required tasks, that aspect would bury itself deeply until needed again.

With physics, there have been three week periods or so when I just write and am inspired by the universal consciousness but other aspects of my life have suffered. One overwhelming thing that I have been able to see is that early on, I was crestfallen when one of my teachers would just shut me down and critisize my approach for 'being too mathematical'. Another time a teacher only gave me partial credit for a plm because although I produced the right answer, she had never seen anyone do a plm like that before. After so much of this garbage, I realized that I do NOT need the approval of anyone else to do my PERSONAL research and I could give a good damn if I am ever published in a journal. I am not in physics for notieriety; merely for UNDERSTANDING...

I don't know how you might characterize where I may lie on the spectrum, but curious as to your opinion and thanks for the time you took to answer my questions.

Keto, I TOLD you not to start him up...

CN, I've had ALL these discussions with you. You've diverted a lot of threads over (literally) a couple of years hear. I had hoped we were past all that.

I am FULLY aware, and have been since before your first wielding of "fine Promethean steel" that you appropriate my rhetoric to use as a thresher to clear the ground so you can take the same postures, approaches etc you always have. THAT'S why I said nothing has changed.

I'm going to leave you this thread. Please don't try diverting any others.

calling attention to the NT tendency "to lie on Black folks" has wonderful utility as far as it goes...., in certain contexts it's absolutely the right tool for the job at hand. f'zample, at Blackprof.com - it has made for some very interesting developments. My compliment to you for that rhetorical application was entirely sincere, I have used it where appropriate with great relish and I hope other people pick it up and use it to great good effect, as well.

As for the thread diversion bit, Earl, you impute a motive to me that simply doesn't exist and you make yourself out small in the process. I have not now - nor have I ever - intentionally hijacked or diverted any of your threads. When you post something of interest to me, I comment. Simple, that's really all there is to it. I'm sorry that you become offended anytime I engage with enthusiasm. I'll make a point of not bringing any further genuine interest to P6.

you make yourself out small in the process.

Possibly. But as Dubya says, that's for history to judge. But we have history where you've TOLD my you will redifine my terms 'and we'll see whose definitions win.' I'm looking foir serious evidence that ain't the case anymore before we can go from mutually tolerable presence to possible coalition again. And when you appropriate my words as soon as I use them, it feels like mockery.

I felt like you ought to know that right away. Why dick around when I see we will inevitably get to the point where it must be said? 

Uh, I had the audacity to stipulate a working definition of Blackness as interpersonal communion . Taking ahold of Black partisan in the light of that neologism is thus an inevitability. (If I recall correctly, the specific term in kwestin here is "Black partisan" is it not?) I continue to believe that the collective processes we have nucleated here in KC better exemplify the concept than any amount of racially identified rhetoric ever will - on that basis I remain confident that in the end, there can be only one....,

when you appropriate my words as soon as I use them, it feels like mockery.

Then trademark yo shit and make a nucca pay royalties!

I respect your methodical approach and I enjoy and greatly appreciate your rhetorical deliverables. Isn't there an adage relating imitation and flattery? That said, anything I see on the global network of interconnected computing machinery that attracts my interest, I'll jack it with the quickness and defy anybody to try and stop me.  In case you missed it, but I know you didn't - I'm giving this one a workout too. I think people get it easier than Aquaboogie, though to me they say exactly the same thing....,

I'm looking foir serious evidence that ain't the case anymore before we can go from mutually tolerable presence to possible coalition again.

As for coalition, that's strictly up to you. You know what I do and you have a better than average grasp of how I do it. You also know that I've reached out to you at least twice to enlist your aid in coalition and been rebuffed. I don't expect that to change.

I understand the media construct you're doing here. Bottom line, since you find my enthusiastic commenting vexatious in the context of that construct, I will simply refrain from further enthusiastic commenting at P6. No biggie....,

My only thought in all of this is that sounding smart is not at all the same as being smart. Verbal proficiency--the ability to master language, whether it's arcane technical jargon or a foreign language--is given far too much weight as a measure of intelligence. Some of the most brilliant people in the world have trouble putting together a coherent sentence. And some of the most vacuous minds I've ever encountered demonstrate impressive fluency. Far too often, "nerds" use their verbal proficiency to massage their own egos, and sacrifice mutual understanding and mutual affection in the process. Typically, "hyperwhiteness", as described by Bucholtz, is nothing but compensation for the ostracism "nerds" often experience, not because of their intelligence, but because of their insufferable conceitedness. Every parent who has a child blessed with exceptional intelligence should make it their mission in life to make it abundantly clear to that child that academic ability is not a measure of personal worth. It ain't what you got, but how you use it.