Prometheus 6

I think the key is to count your blessings so that  you don't lose focus on what you have accomplished vs. what you had hoped to accomplish.

Doesn't everyone dream more than they achieve?

Doesn't everyone dream more than they achieve?

Surprisingly I'm having a problem shaping a clear response.

I think most people want stability. I think if they can get their basics without exhausting themselves, they are basically cool (to me, a bit of pleasure is one of the basics).

For those who want more, though, yeah. You gotta know what you have, both the tools you have to work with and the accomplishments you've made.

I think if they can get their basics without exhausting themselves, they are basically cool

Given what I've witnessed in the past, and reading the threads, I wonder and am left to conclude, for now, that's not the case.

My understanding comes from working with and managing humans in the workplace, from line supervisor of AVP/corporate political player.

My first management class was for that line supervisor job. There was about 20 people who had just been promoted and I learned a lot that I kept. I learned that the best worker isn't always the best supervisor because they judge people by the standard they hold themselves to...and they have proven themselves exceptional.

You, Darkstar, are exceptional. And yes, birds of a feather flock together, and those of us who gather to discuss such stuff have much in common (even those whose comments must be approved). But how many people have you met in your striving who were pretty much born where they are?

But how many people have you met in your striving who were pretty much born where they are?

Those who I really click with? None. 

There are interesting family dynamics developing which, over the span of years, I'll get to see how people born into decent means will do. God willing of course.

Those who I really click with? None.

Like I said, birds of a feather. I'm talking about ALL of them.

Should I only think about strivers? 

but i never considered that we were discussing an "american" ideal...i thought we were focussing on Black men in particular.

 the key is to count your blessings so that  you don't lose focus on what you have accomplished vs. what you had hoped to accomplish.

 if we're talking about Black men, this statement could be modified slightly to incorporate "what you had to get through to get there" so as to incorporate the recognition of the stressors that affect our daily existence.  

We try to have this ideal life made of ideal parts. And of course we are none of those things. So much of what we have to do is the facade than makes us fit in. I think we have these idealizations we are trying to be, and we make plans as though we have succeeded. 

p6, your ideology-free approach loses traction for me because you disassociate our existence from the particular reality we exist in.  your "ideal existence" is  interior and individual; it only minimally acknowledges the external dynamics that shaped those ideals  or the external obstacles that impede our progress towards them.

Even if we can maintain the ideal shape we need to hold, the space in which we are to fit must  conform as well, which means the people around us hold up their facades as well. Our happiness depends on them being as ideal as we must be.

This piece acknowledges that exterior forces ("people around us") play a role in our happiness; but it doesn't point to the possibility that others' "ideal" existence may not consider our happiness (or even existence) at all.  this is not to say that we should worry about what other people are doing...but we'd be foolish not to acknowledge that there are influences inimical to our existence.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that we can achieve financial success and still get redlined on a mortgage or low-bridged by child support and crazy baby mamas; that we can maintain physical health and still suffer the loss of a loved one; or that we can be members of the church in good standing and still suffer from depression or dementia.   these are not things that are SPECIFIC to Black men's existence, but they are events and circumstances that we as Black men find ourselves faced with but too often are unequipped to handle with grace.

if you can't tell, i'm working thru this as i write to y'all...i'm still not certain if this is exactly what i mean but i know it approaches what i wanted to say. 

Yes, ConPermiso, I think you are still on target and moving in the same direction. There are, as you point out, issues that black men face that are not necessarily specific to our existence as black men. On the other hand, how we deal with these issues and the responses we receive from the larger world has a great deal to do with our being black men.

I am more interested in this facet of the discussion than, in say, Cobb's desire to create a safe place for him and other middle class men to discuss the quotidian issues of everyday life. I don't mean to trivialize his concerns but we have discussions of the sort that he wants everyday. What we don't have are discussions about why the church, for example, does not provide the sense of fellowship that many of us are seeking. 

OK, I agree with this.

if we're talking about Black men, this statement could be modified slightly to incorporate "what you had to get through to get there" so as to incorporate the recognition of the stressors that affect our daily existence.

p6, your ideology-free approach loses traction for me because you disassociate our existence from the particular reality we exist in.

Weird, ain't it? The exact opposite of what I do moment to moment.

This may sound like bullshit, but at the moment I don't feel like I have any of those issues live. My current issues are pretty much all the repercussions of my own decisions.

This is the skeleton, a model I use that I've never put into words before. I figure each person's life puts the flesh on it.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that we can achieve financial success and still get redlined on a mortgage or low-bridged by child support and crazy baby mamas; that we can maintain physical health and still suffer the loss of a loved one; or that we can be members of the church in good standing and still suffer from depression or dementia. these are not things that are SPECIFIC to Black men's existence, but they are events and circumstances that we as Black men find ourselves faced with but too often are unequipped to handle with grace.

This is hitting us as black men harder than other demographics because we are probably more likely to get jacked by a mortgage, probably more likely to get jacked by child support and issues with the mothers of our children. The situation you are talking about is Cosby (sans the millions) if his life took a turn for the worse. Someone who THINKS he has "made it" and then gets hit with a left hook out of nowhere.

I'm not in this position because I haven't "made it" yet. But what we are really talking about is a "one false move crew."

Here's my problem. I don't know if we're talking specifics or generalities here. If this is a search for heuristics it's a way different conversation than if it's about immediate support.

I think it is a search for heuristics and immediate support. Reciprocal relations of causality and need.

Still here. I figure the support part is where the questions are.

I'm trying to figure out what I can do. When Spence said a place for discussion would be useful, I start thinking of online components. It would have to be interactive, because no one can be counted on to intuit the need for immediate support. I'm asking myself what guy is going to have the balls to write about their personal problems first? What kind of privacy is needed? 

I had the thought of a site where any member can post, but only comments would be attributed...members would not know who posted the issue.

I'd written a few different takes on this issue when it came up at the beginning. And I was going to post them anonymously. Not because I didn't want any of you knowing what I was dealing with, and not because I don't trust you but because I'm pretty private about this stuff. I decided against it because we've got to get to the point where we can divulge when things aren't going ok.

So yeah a place for discussion of these issues is going to run into some hurdles...BUT we should be able to at least post coping strategies here or somewhere that can be of aid. Craig  Nulan consistently refers to the value of work--of people getting together for projects that are connected to some higher good. The work takes the focus off of you as an individual and onto some larger collective, and that process can help you realize that there is another life out there that can geneate sustenance.

Walks and other activities that can get me outside breathing fresh air has been helpful. Being around the kids has been helpful too.

And then mentally I try to keep an eye on the big picture and have some faith in the work processes and the network I've developed that has gotten me to where I am.

I can go into each of these into more depth. What we can provide virtually are spaces where people can come to vent, and also can come to say "ok this is what is working for me...this is what isn't." and then for people interested in working groups a place where people can do that as well.