Prometheus 6

Everything that rises must converge.

Am I wrong to feel insulted by that question? Not just because he's disturbed by the prospect of a black president being the commencement of black "payback," but because I feel the US govt and all states and territories and businesses involved in the slave economy both before and after the Civil War, and continuing two-tier, racist society, should be coming deep out of pocket.

But I digress. What this country needs is a Truth and Reconciliation Conference.

Truth and Reconciliation Conference

Not necessary or productive. Black folks don't need it and white folks, in the main, don't want it.

Not necessary or productive. Black folks don't need it and white folks, in the main, don't want it.

Speak for yourself. I know there's a lot of dirt that I still don't know about. And whether white folks want it or not, they desperately need it. So do a lot of Black folks for that matter.

Part of the problem with "race relations" is that so much is based on what white people want and/or will accept. So what if they don't want it? These are the same people who can't seem to wrap their heads around the concept of institutional racism. So we know they ain't exactly "on top of things" when it comes to race and racism.

And there's much, much more that most black folks don't know. And think about the kids and all the stories they've been told only to go to a school and learn that it's "not true."

As I do every morning I was listening to C-Span preparing for the day (with the T.V. blasting) and heard this. This did not shock me at all. If any of us think that there isn't a large - I'd say most - part of white America that has this fear, among others, then they are kidding themselves. Oh, it will get much worse than this. This is why I feel that Mr. Obama will not be elected. (I hope I'm wrong.) Already some 30% of white America admit that race will be a factor come November, and that is for those that admit it.
A "Truth and Reconciliation Conference"? I doubt it!! We are talking about a nation that refuses to pass a bill just to STUDY the effects of Slavery, much less convene on truth and reconciliation. Until white America show me different - consistently - I won't expect different of them.

Why do black people need a Truth and Reconciliation Conference? I'm interested in why you believe this is something we need.

I guess it's part political, part personal. Globally, most people are at best dimly aware of the history of racial subjugation in this country. A prominent and public review of that history might open a lot of eyes and strengthen international support for racial reform initiatives. And personally, having the historical context that explains how we got to where we are would equip me and a lot of other folks with a better map for figuring out where to go from here.

That Black folk will treat them the way that they've treated us. Me? Just get the foot off our collective neck, and that's a place where we can begin.

I think we need it because the truth of what happened to our people is not known or acknowledged, even by us. I think we give the time of 1500s to 1970 about an 8 on the rictor scale of crimes against humanity. It actually deserves about a 20. I mean, I've only read 50 pages or so of SLAVERY UNDER ANOTHER NAME, but I'm greatly impressed. What I've read so far isn't exactly "news" to me, but I took maybe 7 black history and African American studies classes in college. It would've been more, but I had to take a European history for my degree major, and the translatlantic slave trade is put under a different topic of courses. And clearly, not every black person has been to college or will go.

Though, I was slightly surprised that while 98% of the crime commit postbellum was by white folks, the power structure successfully pinned the problem on freedpeople. I mean, I never bought the notion of "black" criminality, but I never really appreciated that it was used to cover for white folks. You gotta admit, PT, if that became mainstream knowledge, that would be a big slap in the face to proponents of racial profiling.

Also, I would expect a T&R conference to discuss black achievements that have either been denied or destroyed, ala Rosewood race riots. That, too, would be good for the souls of black folks. To know that we did achieve a good deal only to have it destroyed. Part of the disconnect between black students and the public educational system is due to the feeling that maybe, just maybe black folks actually didn't do anything that great.

So, in my opinion, a proper T&R conference would do much to combact racist myths and re-affirm black humanity. And that's just where T&R concerns black folks. It would certainly take down white folks a peg or two. Especially those, "My grandparents came to this country with nothing . . . what's wrong with you black people" white folks who are also those, "We must protect our borders! We're being invade from the South" white folks.

And that brings me to T&R for Latinos. I didn't know until my junior year in college that the only reason America got involved in Cuba's "Revolutionary War" aka, the Spanish American War, was so the US could control Cuba. And the whole "Alamo" and "Davey Crockett" myths? And of course David Thoreaux (sp? The American philosopher who ended up in jail for protesting the Mexican War.) and the fact that the Mexican War was the training ground for many-a Confederate soldier and officer.

And we can't forget some T&R for Native Americans. I've heard of, well mostly read about, Native American children going home in tears after learning about the "massacres" carried out by their ancestor "savages." I mean, I loves Thanksgiving dinners - but we need to acknowledge who's really giving thanks and why.

Also, PT, did you know that a teacher in Watts, L.A. was fired this past academic year for being too Afrocentric? http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-jordan12-2008jun12,0,5331588.story

And not so much that I think a T&R conference will happen, Osiris. Just like I have my doubts about Obama winning in Nov. That won't, however, keep me from voting for Obama or thinking that a T&R conference is in order. Even pragmatically, it may be easier to sell a T&R conference to white folks, about 94% of whom are against reparations, than reparations. And once we've dealt with the truth, including the wide and growing disparity in wealth accumulation and how it affects lives, including the fact that a white couple making less than $15k has a better chance of owning a home than a black couple making more than $60k, financial reparations are in order. But, financial reparations is only the beginning.

Did I answer your question, PT? My writing can be quite muddled at times, which led one of my professors to believe I thought segregation in Chicago was a good thing when I only meant to suggest it worked out a lot better for black folks than white folks expected. They did, after all, find it "necessary" to "regentrify" the black business district. But, I digress. My point is simply that I know my answers may need further "clarification."

"That Black folk will treat them the way that they've treated us."

Yeah, I know. It makes my laugh when I remember they think that.

And yes, taking your foot of our neck would be a good place to begin. Then, maybe, we can discuss your grandfathers' foot and my grandparents' neck.

"I think we need it because the truth of what happened to our people is not known or acknowledged, even by us."

No disrespect intended but I think you are using the word "truth" as a synonym for the word "fact" or "facts." The truth of what happened to us here is well known to all of us. This includes those of us who make a living denying its significance in contemporary affairs. All of the facts of what has happened to us could only become known if we found a way to resurrect all of our dead.

BTW, I don't think racial segregation worked out for black folks benefit even if black folks did better than whites had hoped. I think, for example, the true value of black people's assets were lost and black people were prevented from making investments that would have paid them higher returns than what they received by being forced to live in racially segregated communities.

There're still many, many more facts that we can discover without resurrecting the dead. And not everybody knows either the truth or the facts. You have to take black history in college to even get a hint. No one could make money denying the truth if the truth had wide acclaim. And as exemplified by the reaction to Wright and Pfleger, the truth does NOT have wide acclaim and isn't widely accepted.-And that would be another part of reconciliation: making sure American schools teach the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

And I wasn't saying that segregation worked out well for black folks. I'm just saying we did better than expected. Of course, had equality been the norm we would've done even better.

No disrespect intended but I think you are using the word "truth" as a synonym for the word "fact" or "facts." The truth of what happened to us here is well known to all of us.

I think you're speaking for your own generation, or perhaps for your own circle. There are a lot of young brothers and sisters who don't have the first clue about what happened to us here. I know I only had a vague idea myself until a few years ago when I started writing and researching in earnest, trying to find answers for my questions.

“…There're still many, many more facts that we can discover without resurrecting the dead. And not everybody knows either the truth or the facts. You have to take black history in college to even get a hint.”

I was a little fuzzy with where the whole ‘Reconciliation’ concept was going until that last comment. That one struck a nerve. The following may be a little redundant given that I’ve posted this comment before way back in April sometime, but I think it ties in with the train of thought:

I heard Morgan ‘Easy Reader’ Freeman make a comment not long ago that I thought was kind of shocking, but is a part of what now fuels a lot my sense of righteous indignation of late. He made the comment on 60 minutes:

"You're going to relegate my history to a month?" Freeman asks Wallace in their discussion of black history month. After noting there is no "white history month," he says, "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history."

Now, I don’t embrace his concept of ending racism by not talking about it. I actually think that the conversation of race starts with our future generations of children in school as early on as humanly possible.

If, at a minimum, the people of color who are publicly championed February are good enough to have acclaim praised upon them by PBS and the like, then incorporate that into the natural progression of the classroom curriculum. With all of the good that still comes from black history month, (…Which, to be clear, until things get better, don’t take it away! It’s one of the few things I can still cling to!) one of the major failings of black history month is that it’s rolled out as if to say, “Hey! Here you go! This is for YOU guys!

As poignant as the story of Solomon Northup is,

(Which, personally, is second only to Fredrick Douglas’s ‘My Bondage and My Freedom’ which I always end up reading once a year!)

Few black people know of it and it is of no concern for most white people today, even though it was a major story of the day reported by the New York Times:

http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/northup/support1.html

Granted, stories such as these are well documented at certain levels of higher education, but if the only way a child has of learning this in school is if they’ve already proven their merit as a scholar, then how does the inspiration of a story of extreme perseverance get to those that may have greatest need for it, or the ability but no means to access the environments that would provide it?

As eloquently as both Northup and Douglas tell their stories within the harrowing context of slavery, the essence of their thoughts are at best, in most respects, voices crying out in a vacuum, because they reach far fewer than they should.
Martin Luther King should not be incorrectly left to delude future generations of school children that he was the first truly articulate black man to speak out against the injustices of racism.

If their stories are American stories then they need to be taught in the school chronologically within the context of American history. Teach the story of settling of the American west, warts and all. Then, the school system bears the burden of making the case of what America has done to reconcile these injustices. At the end of the day, if the student believes the case has not been made, then they need to understand they bear the responsibility of their conscience and need to work to make a change in their walk in life. But if we’re really talking education, the education system should bear the responsibility of not only teaching history, but helping to instill a sense of social conscious.

But then you have a real, ongoing discussion. Kids won’t ask why they’re talking about race, because they’ll understand that they need to have these discussions to help bridge the gulfs of misunderstanding that have been allowed to proliferate as long as they have.

I think overhauling every history book in America would probably be way too volumous and lengthy an undertaking, but I think a companion reader created to compliment pre-existing elementary through high school text books would be a sound, logical way to go.

When I think about it, throughout history, it would appear most white youth have embraced what concepts they have of black people in their youth. Those that have embraced Jazz, Motown, Funk and Rap have done so in a period of their lives when they are open minded enough to appreciate the talents of the artists beyond aspects of color, but their perspectives of who the people are is still molded by what they know their racial history. Those that take the time to dig deep to learn who these people are as individuals, come away thinking ‘This person does not fit the mold of what I understand people of this race to be about. This is an individual beyond aspects of race.”

As opposed to “This is one more individual from a larger a race of people that I continue to learn more about.”

If the latter, then it just stops all the dumb shit of taking an individual and holding them up as emblematic of an entire people. There are good examples and bad examples in any race of people, but, of course, with that, I overstate an obvious fact that is still lost upon a great many.

"There are a lot of young brothers and sisters who don't have the first clue about what happened to us here. I know I only had a vague idea myself until a few years ago when I started writing and researching in earnest, trying to find answers for my questions."

I'm not trying to be funny or annoying but are you telling me that there are blacks in your generation who do not know that our ancestors were enslaved? I believe you if you tell me that it is true but I am surprised that things have gotten that bad in our homes. If this is true, I can guarantee you that a Truth and Reconciliation is the worse way to begin to acquaint them with this history. We have to first tell them these stories from our perspective only and the stories must be personal.

I'm not trying to be funny or annoying but are you telling me that there are blacks in your generation who do not know that our ancestors were enslaved?

I don't think so. I think he's saying they don't understand why 'freedom' hasn't worked for us. I think he's talking about the time between slavery and now.

"I think overhauling every history book in America would probably be way too volumous and lengthy an undertaking, "

Actually, not quite. You've probably thought about this since April, but it's something that's been churning in my mind since I realized my 5 on the AP US history exam gave me 6 hours of history credit, but not a lick of substantative knowledge of black history. What I learned from my high school teacher who, by the way, allayed our "social conscious" raising by assuring us slavery couldn't have been as bad as all that, otherwise you would've had more rebellion while I sat there, the only raisin in the pie, without the knowledge to correct him, was very superficial.

But I digress. Compared to the number of schools in the US, on a relatively few history books are used. By that I mean, if there are 1million schools, there are probably just 1 thousand different books. And these high school history books are written by a relatively small group of historians. Most states have some committe where-by the state curriculum and permitted books go through a approval process every 5 years or so. And, of course, most publishers want to do mass productions, so they really cater to the interests of the bigger states. Texas is one of those catered states.

So, what you end up having is like the entire Southeastern states all using the same books written by pretty much the same group of historians. Overhauling the history books wouldn't be that hard.

The only problem would be the volume and size of the books - but I have a suggestion for that. Instead of trying to tell "everyone's" point of view, one thing that could be done is to write about different periods of time from different perspectives. This would be more interesting AND intellectually challenging. White Americans take for granted that all Americans have experienced history, with the exception of slavery, the same way. Not true. So, even if we talk about WWII from say, the Latino, perspective, the students will still know it was different for Asian Americans, blacks, whites, and Native Americans. When you think about history, especially in terms of black history, Latino history, etc, etc, what can be lost is that we're still talking about the same set of events. Right? So the students won't miss the WWs or Counter-Reconstruction or the Great Migration. They won't miss the "temporal" facts. But, they will gain an appreciation and respect for different experiences of "America." And hopefully, that can get us on our way to equality.

And, you've aptly captured part of my thinking on the issue.

I don't think so. I think he's saying they don't understand why 'freedom' hasn't worked for us. I think he's talking about the time between slavery and now.

I'm saying that and more. Most young folks know that slavery once existed, but they don't know where it started, why it started, how long it lasted, how widespread it was, or how it was perpetuated, any more than most white people do. They certainly don't know what happened between "emancipation" and the civil rights movement, except that we were segregated, and they damn sure couldn't tell you how our recent past is related to our present condition.

I agree. (with P6 and now solar) The actual timeline works something like this:

1585-1865 slavery

1865-?1877? Construction - some sense of "freedom"

1877 - ?1907? Counter-Reconstruction - re-enslavement for all practical purposes

1907 - 1945 - Jim Crow - still a lot of economic exploitation and "legalized" slavery by way of "private" prisons of sort
-also, during this period, you get the Great Migration, Harlem Renassaince

1946 - 1970 - Civil Rights Movement

1970 - present - backlash to CRM

And for the record, there would've been more actual slave rebellions had the demographics and geography been more favorable. Slaves found different ways to rebel, including infanticide, which is how I came over to the pro-choice side.

"I think he's saying they don't understand why 'freedom' hasn't worked for us."

They don't know about Jim Crow and the reasons for the Civil Rights Movement? I am out of touch because I thought, obviously incorrectly that, as a general rule, black folks knew this history. At least this history.

Cause it one of those arguments that annoys me. You know. The whole "my ancestors never owned slaves."

Well, what did you ancestors do? Did the eat rice? Did they wear clothes made of cotton? Did the work in the textile industry? Perhaps they were farmers who grew food and sold some of it to slaveholders as food for the slaves.

Perhaps your ancestor was an overseer. Maybe your ancestor an train engineer or something like that - cause railroads were built by slave and convict labor, and by convict, of course, I mean black men who were arrested for "vagrancy" because they didn't have the papers to show they worked for white men.

How about the financial industry? Where do you think all the money came from and how all that money was made? Just the economy at the time period. Where do you think the money for Independence came from?

And where do you think the money went? Cause it sholl ain't go to the people who earned it. And we're just scratching the surface.

I still think that a T&R session is the worse way to begin to disseminate this knowledge.

Know. Not anymore. These are the stories that are handed down from one generation to another, IF they're handed down at all.

There's no doubt, most blacks know "something." We know something's not quite right. We just can't put our finger on it. And there's so, so much more to be learned. I mean, archeologists are just now discovering all black towns in the Midwest. In terms of American history profession, that's thrilling!

Then what do you propose?

They don't know about Jim Crow and the reasons for the Civil Rights Movement?

Details? No. Most people know only what they remember of what they were taught. And they still teach elementary school kids that Lincoln freed the slaves because slavery was wrong.

Students are taught legends, and are left to fit history into it IF they go to college.

I still think that a T&R session is the worse way to begin to disseminate this knowledge.

Yeah...folks want truth, and they want reconciliation. They don't want a commission though.

Exactly, P6. And because they don't really know the details of Jim Crow, including the North's racism and backlass to openhousing, they can't quite get their hands around James Crowe, II.

Plus, what they're taught has a beginning and an end. CRM ended, its in the past, and the history book implies it got the job done and everything is alright.

I think its reconciliation they want. And we have to insist on the truth as a way of getting there.

They don't know about Jim Crow and the reasons for the Civil Rights Movement? I am out of touch because I thought, obviously incorrectly that, as a general rule, black folks knew this history. At least this history.

Like I said, most young folks know that we segregated i.e. we had to sit at the back of the bus, use separate public facilities, etc. They know that some Black folks were lynched. But these are just bare, disconnected facts, without context. And what they do know isn't even the most salient part of that history. They don't know that slavery didn't effectively end until the outbreak of WWII. They don't know that white folks regularly and arbitrarily appropriated their parents' and grandparents' private and public goods. They don't know how the resistance movement came into being. In short, we aren't oriented to our own place in the world and in history.

And you might be right that a T&R conference isn't the best way. But we have to find some way to systematically popularize this knowledge among our youth, or they're going to wind up fighting to recover even more lost ground.

"I mean, archeologists are just now discovering all black towns in the Midwest. In terms of American history profession, that's thrilling!"

Yes, and this process should continue but a T&R conference does not enhance this process. In fact, it will debase and trivialize this process. The discussion and the stories need to take place among black folk for the benefit of black folk and by black folk. I'm leery of T&R conferences because in America the process will get hijacked. I am not even in favor of putting any slave memorials on the national mall or creating any national slave museums in Washington, D.C.

I think we lose every time we want to throw our history into the national maw. Black history month was better when we celebrated it alone and did not ask America to participate. Now it is completely commercialized and black folks are reduced to going through some disassociated rituals like reciting the birth dates of famous blacks etc. It drives me nuts!

I get your point, PT. But that's not going to get us anywhere as a nation.

Ptc, back up there at comment #1, is that a Flannery O'Connor reference?

I. Am. Impressed!

The first questions of consciousness are "Who am I?", "Where am I?", "Where am I going?" and "What should I be doing?"

-Paul Lample

Wit' all the murder and the madness and the mayhem in the music/kinda hard to know what's real when it's part of the illusion/when you're lookin' for a message but you're findin' no solution/for your problems or your questions, the teachings or the lessons

-Murder Madness Music, The Lumberjacks

Yes, the reference is taken from the title of one of Flannery O'Connor's short stories.

"But that's not going to get us anywhere as a nation.

Nation building may be a failed dream if building a nation requires us to lose our history. And it will be lost if we allow it to pass out of our oral traditions. It has to be embedded in the spoken word and passed down through the generations. If we put it all in buildings and wait for McDonald's, CiTiBank and Hallmark to sponsor the retelling and the NAACP to give someone an Image Award all of it will be eventually lost. We need to look for the small ways first. Restore the oral tradition.

Being extremely open-minded, I would be curious to know, in so far as the conference goes, beyond a statement of the facts, how does it maintain it’s lasting impact on a grass roots level?
How would it differ form say, Bill Clinton’s initiative on race?

http://clinton5.nara.gov/Initiatives/OneAmerica/america_onrace.html

Or what Tavis Smiley does yearly with the SOBU. There have been Hip Hop summits and a bunch of stuff like that.

(…Mind you, I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, I’m just trying to understand how the final outcome manifests itself effectively any better than things that have come prior.)

What I think precludes a lot of dialogue in the black community about talking history is that there is a general shame in it. Granted, I get it that a lot of folks don’t want to dwell on how many of our ancestors were slaves, domestics and the like. But having had relatives who did work in this capacity and bearing witness to the nobility, dignity and intelligence with which they carried themselves, I find it nothing less than remarkable that they could do so in such oppressive times as they live in.

(Who knows? Future generations may say the same of us! What would that say about progress?)

But, I agree the history needs to be put out there. I also believe a big part of it starts at home with us. It’s probably a far better method of getting unvarnished or sanitized.

I have an uncle (…My mother’s brother) who used to work me like I was a runaway slave from sun up to sun down in the summertime for no more than lunch a lot of times. He’d tell me at the end of any given week that if anything, I owed him for all he had taught ME!

(And yet, almost every summer this was my fate! I’d beg my parents to be freed of my servitude, tbut I was always told how great of a ‘learning experience’ I was getting!)

What I learned, if anything, from all of that manual labor was that, if you learn to bust your hump and accept being told you’re in debt to your employer at the end of the week, you can do almost anything when you get an opportunity to make real money!

But while he’d take me all over the countryside doing home repairs and improvements and the like six to seven days a week in the summers, he’d tell me stories about how like most of the land in places like Dale City , Va. had been owned almost entirely by black people and how it had been systematically taken away.

Looking at the some of sprawling homes and estates, I had a hard time believing it, but that’s usually when I’d get cussed out for doubting the truth in what he was saying.

(…Not that I really didn’t believe him, I just found it hard to believe.)

“Everthing ain’t always in the go@#%m book, boy!”

(…If I heard it once, I heard it a million times!)

He’d show me spots where black and white kids would drag race all night long.

“Let me tell you something, being a gear head wasn’t no big deal! You think the white kids was the only ones had tricked up race cars? Black bikers. You name it. What you think, because you don’t see it on t.v. or read it in a book, it didn’t happen?”

(…He would get absolutely indignant if he even thought I was questioning anything!)

He showed me a picture of an old girlfriend of his one day on her Harley Davidson motorcycle dressed in a poodle skirt.

“She was BAD, boy! And she could RIDE that thing, you hear me?”

(…A few years ago I saw a music video by the group Outkast,’Caroline’, I think, that made me think about all of these stories!)

My uncle is in his late 70’s now, still tellin’ all of these tales from back in the day.

Over the last five years or so I’ve been trying to track down him a lot of the older members of my family, some into their 90’s, trying to document a lot of what they can recall of family history and earlier times in general from their perspectives.

(…And there’s not as many of the old folks left to get it from, so I’m trying to work fast!)

It may never get dispersed any further than my kids and immediate family, but I understand the importance of them having a sense of their own personal history as opposed to waiting on half-hearted attempts from uninterested external forces.

Family Clone -

Just beautiful! Your uncle should have paid you though (:~)

Yeah, your uncle could've at least bought you some "soda pop" as they used to call it.

Getting family historical info isn't always that easy. Admittedly, it's not like I'm working my tail off cause my greataunt can talk for hours, but never tell us any of the juicy stuff! I was stunned to find out she had played basketball, though. My father grew up in Jacksonville, Fl during the 60s, and even he doesn't talk about it that much.

For some families, the info is either forgotten or just not talked about. Your family is all too unique. It's not that I don't value our oral history and tradition. I just know mainstream America doesn't.

It would be different from Smiley because he deals more or less with current issues. I haven't read his CONTRACT WITH AMERICA and haven't watched SOBU the entire way through, but there's no way he could've dealt with the depth and breadth of black history in the course of 2 or 3 days IN ADDITION to the other topics he covers. And Clinton's Initiative didn't get wide coverage, and from what I can tell, it didn't tackle history in an effective way. Of course, the UN recently censured the US for "our" racism, and we see how much coverage that got. Also, there will be coverage in every local newspaper. Mandated if necessary.

What I'm talking about would include our best historical facts and mind, anthropologists, sociologists, and archeaologists going through history up to the present is a clear, understandable, systematic way. No social commentarians who people already reject; none of the usual suspects. No Al or Jessie. No Bennet or O'Reilly. None of that "colorblind," "multicultural," stuff that hasn't really helped. Instead of eliminating use of the N-word, we've managed to eliminate use of the R-word, too. When Geraldine can claim that she's not racist and that she's a victim of black anti-white racism, and people actually give her TV time and news space, you know we have a problem.

It would be covered on C-Span as well as network and cable news. It will explain how we get here on a traditionaly time-line level as well as explaining how and why racist myths were started.

It will deal heavily with black/white relations. No other group was oppressed the way we were as long as we were. Clinton iniative talked about how it was "false" to put so much attention on black/white matters as many Americans of both races are descendents of postslavery immigrants. Though true, I find that to be "false."Even up to the present, black/white relations is some other-sci-fi-dimension matter.

We'll talk about the connection between pro-slavery forces saying how much good whites were doing for Africans by removing them from their homes and Pat Buchanan's assertion that Rev. Wright oughtta be kissing the ground out of gratitude for being in America. We'll talk about why white people don't get sing their rap CDs outloud in public, or, more simply, can't use the N-word even when singing to a rap song. In the end, we'll even talk about the disparity in the acceptance and promotion of Pat and Faye but dismissal and silencing of Wright and Pfleger.

And, yeah, we'll even discuss the Ibos, for example, who sold the Mbengas, for example, into European slavery. They'll be held accountable, too. We tell how for the most part, Africans didn't realize how brutal American slavery was or that it was a lifetime sentence, and that by the time the understood the horror of their actions, slavetraders forced them to choose between their own nation-members and other nations farther in the interior.

The genocide of American Aboriginals and theft of their land by Europeans, and Mexican territory by the US will be talked about. The boarding schools Aboriginal children were forced to attend will be discussed. Not just the WWII internment of the Japenese, but also economic exploitation of the Chinese by railroads for example. All of that.

Not only that, but minority accomplishments will be discussed as well. We don't just wanna make white people feel accused, but we don't want to give a false sense of "well, no wonder they/we were exploited. They/We were -some typical negative stereotype of a minority group-." You know? We'll talk about how even though poor whites had the psychological benefit of their whiteness, they were also being economically exploited. (Maybe that fact can cut out all those false charges of divisiveness and allow all of labor to work together.)

I hope that makes sense. This will be like a 5-year project where info is disseminated every so often, but basically at the conclusion of which, we should spend weeks and/or months if necessary discussing the finds in context. The panel of historians, archeaologists, anthropologists, and sociologists will also make recommendations on how to repair the present situation.

That's just my initial fantasy. I'm not sure how "realistic" it may be, but I do think its necessary. Maybe less than 5 years, maybe more. I'm thinking more or less of the South African model; though, admittedly, I'm not as versed on what occured in South Africa as I should be. I know the country is still working out racial, economic, and crime issues. But, though I don't know who makes up their "Supreme Court," the guy I heard on PBS was on point. He sounded more like a polished, sophisticated, legal genuis Tim Wise-type than a Justice Roberts type. So, it definitely changed their govt and the way it operates for and with the people. Just recently, South African Chinese, who were also suppresed during Apartheid, have been legally designated as "black" so that they can receive the same govt assistance that black Africans receive.

And, I'm sure you have an idea of how you think it should play out. I haven't focused a lot on the particulars, I just know a T&R is necessary.

I'm talking about a govt mandated T&R. We can force the govt to move just like the Civil Rights Movement. I'm not waiting on Citibank to sponsor a retelling, or disclose their history of making money of slavery. I'm talking about forcing the govt to act.

And, lest we forget the context of my suggestion, it was in response to the idiot idea of making Obama and anyone running for a seat in Congress to sign a pledge about reparations.

If white folks don't wanna come outta pocket, fine. It's understandable. They don't know the truth. So lets make sure all Americans know the truth; or, at least have popular access to it. Let's get away from demonizing Rev. Wright to demonizing the ignoranimus who put up the clips for not knowing the truth.

When it comes to reparations, I don't think in terms of us taking money from white Americans for things that happened in the past so much as I think in terms of them giving us our money BACK. It's like if a person has some heirloom their ancestor stole. They don't get to say, "We didn't steal it. We weren't there." No, they have to hand over the loot. This isn't about "emotional pain and suffering," though I think that's legitimate. It's about the fact that people die while money gains compound interest.

And the belief-system that propped slavery up hasn't been eradicated or sufficiently reduced as to not impact people's lives. When you think about present day discrimination in the labor market and justice system, for example, and the costs to African Americans, the country and corporations are running up a bill still today.

No government mandated T&R will provide us with what you desire. It has less to do with the presumed perfidy of the government and more to do with the entire process required to engage the government's assistance. Again, I don't think we need the involvement of any institutional players to disseminate the "news" that you want distributed. I would, in fact, urge you to forego efforts to have C-SPAN or another public entity broadcast the proceedings.

Keep this in mind: the greater the scale of the event the less "news" and information will be distributed.

I don't want to throw cold water on your enthusiasm and passion but I am bothered about your insistence that the government needs to be involved in this project or that we need to make whites folks understand. What we need to do, in my opinion, is to spread wide and run low to the ground and make sure that we understand our history.

WE are Rich! beyond our measure and blind beyond the edge of our nose. PT - you always bring it right and exact...and I want to say that you must recognize that our children know next to nothing of our sojourn AND know even less of how SMALL a fragment of our history this has been. Over the past few weeks, I've been going through books from roughly 1700-1930 that chronicle the travels of Europeans to Africa...amazing stuff. These books are often 500, 600, 700 pages - sometimes more than 1,000. All free, all on Google books. All Full Views. And the stories of grandeur that these Europeans are telling would SILENCE the crowd.

Our children are living the delusion of the dealer - the Slave Dealer, the Car Dealer, the Processed Food Dealer, the Dope Dealer, the Pimp...every one of the people who work to create mindless consumers have focused themselves on our progeny. Slavery is critical to understand -- but for Black people who know the real deal, it's a small part with respect to TIME. It so happens that the time is fairly recent.

I would assert we don't need to speak with our locked combatants as much as we need to speak with one another. I'd like to have a national conversation -- and then a Diaspora Conversation -- and then a Reconciliation Conversation with Africa -- and then, whatever time is left can be dedicated to talking to "white America." Hopefully, I'll be good and DEAD by then.

Thanks PT. It's always ALL GOOD.

"King and chief probably had a big beef;
'Cause of that now I grit my teeth." - Chuck D.

Consider it BORROWED or STOLEN or whatever, but I'm taking it. Thanks AGAIN.

"King and chief probably had a big beef;
'Cause of that now I grit my teeth." - Chuck D

.

Back in the day when I used to manage and work in community-based political campaigns (I'm using the term "community-based" to signal that we did not have a lot of money.) we used this term because our largest resource was people, not money. Money was important but we were never going to outspend our opponents. We could outwork them, however, because we could always put more feet on the ground. (Democrats became complete amnesiacs about this fact under the rule of the DLC-types and the Clintonians.)

We referred to the term "spread wide and run low to the ground" as our Apache movement in honor of Geronimo, the great Indian military leader who successfully resisted the American and Mexican troops for years despite being greatly outnumbered.

From Wikipedia:

"Though outnumbered, Geronimo fought against both Mexican and United States troops and became famous for his daring exploits and numerous escapes from capture from 1858 to 1886. One such escape, as legend has it, took place in the Robledo Mountains of southwest New Mexico. The legend states Geronimo and his followers entered a cave, and the U.S. Soldiers waited outside the cave entrance for him, but he never came out. Later it was heard that Geronimo was spotted in a nearby area. The second entrance to the cave has yet to be found and the cave is still called Geronimo's Cave. At the end of his military career, he led a small band of 38 men, women, and children. They evaded 5,000 U.S. troops (one fourth of the army at the time) and many units of the Mexican army for a year. His band was one of the last major forces of independent Indian warriors who refused to acknowledge the United States Government in the American West. This came to an end on September 4, 1886, when Geronimo surrendered to United States Army General Nelson A. Miles at Skeleton Canyon, Arizona."

I'm not against running-wide, spreading-low. I'm not against explaining to our children how Europeans thought Africans were so graceful and beautiful and clean (most especially clean and good-smelling at a time when not Euros took baths). I'm not against any of that. I just don't see that gaining equality and justice for us.

It's not about having white "approval." It's about having the govt, both state and federal, and in many case, local govt, and corporations admit to crimes against humanity so that we can achieve equality and justice. No amount of self-knowledge, and don't doubt my committment to self-knowledge, is going to fix our life expectancy or rates of infant mortality. It's not going to fix the income gap, the gap in quality of health care. It'll definitely improve and possibly invert the achievement gap, but in a time when a white man with only a high school diploma has a better chance of having a job than a black college graduate, what does that get us?

And the way I see it, it's has nothing to do with white approval. It's about getting was rightfully ours. I just don't see a widespread campaign on the part of black people doing the job. I'm not suggesting the govt is sufficient. But it doesn't have to be either/or. It can be both/and. And I think the govt and corporate America should be involved if for know other reason than that they have so absolving to do. Plus, maybe that'll get rank-n-file white folks off the "guilt" depot and onto the "action" train. The govt and corporate America and white America have proven their shadiness since 1776. That doesn't mean that govt, at the very least, can't be pushed. Corporate America responds to money, and black America is like in or around the top 10 largest economies?And do you know how many billions we're losing as a community every year from unfair wages and salaries and then more expensive mortgages and loans?

And, no, Temple. We as an independent community of people don't have to be "reconciled" to another independent community of people. But we live in America, and that means living with white folks. Fannie Lou Hamer was open about not wanting to be "equal" with her oppressor so much as free from his oppression. If that works better for you, great. I like her quote. And I believe it was MLK who said something to the effect of the govt can't make a man love me, but it can keep him from killing me.

"It's about having the govt, both state and federal, and in many case, local govt, and corporations admit to crimes against humanity so that we can achieve equality and justice."

They will never, ever admit to any of this behavior. Keep in mind that in South Africa and other countries folks came forward and admitted their transgressions because the alternative was to be charged with crimes. We have no capacity to compel folks in this country to do anything.

What is rightfully mine is so much more than any apology or acknowledgement could ever convey.

I do believe we can gain that capacity. After all, you're quoting Gerinomo's fight against the US and Mexico in support of spreading wide and running low. If Gerinomo can do, so can we. And it's not just black folks. It Asain Americans, Latin Americans, and American Aboriginals. Did I mention everybody? And we have the international community on our side.

An apology and an acknowledgement are simply a means to an end, not the end in and of themselves.

Reality check sis. No civil rights legislation has ever passed, no recognition of racism has ever been made, unless an immediate benefit to the mainstream was gained thereby.

You will have to find a way to describe this T & R in a way that at least sounds like white folks will benefit from it.

Cause the truth is considering the Labor Movement, much more could have been and still could be done if it weren't so easy for management to provoke white anti-black racism. We'd have a stronger economy, a strong safety net, and better wages if it weren't so easy for the political elite to provoke white anti-black racism. Black sharecroppers and tenant farmers got the worse of the deal, but it's not like white sharecroppers and tenant farmers didn't get got, too.

With the possible exception of Russia and the Cold War, our foreign policy would've have kept and would keep us safer if it weren't for anti-Arab racism.

Give me some time, and I can do much better than that. Having the eyes of the world on us after WWII was helpful. With all these foreign policy failures, certainly T&R would make us look better to the rest of the world. And plus, if the US were to cop to crimes against humanity against Chinese, maybe China will forgive some of our debt. It seems like it basically boils down to getting a critical mass, not even necessarily a majority, but just a critical mass of "Reagan Democrats" to see they have more in common with hard working African Americans than they do with white "elites."

Okay, the China thing was a joke. But at least they could stop sending us unhealthy and unsafe products.

Don't worry, P6. But the time you see me as a guest on The View, I'll have all the kinks worked out. And spread wide, run low will be included.

But the time you see me as a guest on The View, I'll have all the kinks worked out.

I'm counting on it. But you'll have to email me to let me know you're on...it's not on my standard viewing schedule.

"But the time you see me as a guest on The View..."

I have never watched this program. I wasn't aware that it was a political discussion show.

Keith Olbermann? I'll do his show.

The T&R I'd really like to do, but just so we're clear, I haven't been invited to any show, political or otherwise.