Prometheus 6

OT -Government to bail out Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae

here is the NYTimes story

Maybe someone can answer this for me: Why does it seem the Obama campaign allow the Republicans to usurp the change mantra, and the historic first mantra? If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Obama appears to have the edge. Doesn't it seem like Obama's campaign staff seem to be caught on their heels right now?

Why does it seem the Obama campaign allow the Republicans to usurp the change mantra, and the historic first mantra?

They haven't usurped. They've only used.

Doesn't it seem like Obama's campaign staff seem to be caught on their heels right now?

No. How are they on their heels when McCain abandoned two years of campaigning to copy them?

At this point everyone is in agreement for change, but it is clear that white voters simply don't want Obama getting credit for leading it.

Sall, I can't say that most of the white voters you encounter don't feel that way. But I invite you to expand the scale and scope of your observations. Because, bottom line, one whole hell of a lot of white individuals voted for him over other white folks during the primaries and a hell of a lot more came out of the darkness (as it were) during and after the convention.

"In America black people don't suffer from a lack of accomplishment. They suffer from a lack of recognition of their accomplishments."

50% plus of US consistently vote Dem
30% conservative ( code for keep white people in complete power regardless of whether you are shooting yourself in foot )

20% wishy washy sheeple controlled by boob tube programming i.e. personality and/or fear and this year racism

10% of these people are so fed up with the GOP crooks that republicans, independents and so called "Reagan" democrats will vote for Obama.

The national polls have been revealed as fake how can you sample 1300 people and get a clear picture of how 60 million voters will vote.

The GOP strategy is and has been "just keep it close enough to steal" in key electoral states

We're still talking a lot of white folks voting for a Black man.

There's more than one way to look at it, P6, but a black male candidate losing Ohio, Pennsylvania, by only 10 points to a political dynasty requires a lot of white people. His task is daunting though when it comes to the general if Bill Clinton were running right now he'd never have become President, because he wouldn't have the black vote. Look at how much harder it will be for Obama and the anti-reflex that he will encounter. There are so many rural counties filled and elderly, as well as working class white women, that are going to be a stumbling block rather than a stepping stone to the Presidency. Not to mention the refined racism in the Northeast. I hate to be such a doom and gloomer, but I think he will probably lose a solidly democratic state like Massachusetts, or New Jersey, and probably lose a state like New Hampshire. Someone commented that linking McCain to George Bush isn't working. You call someone a maverick enough times, average white people will believe it, even evidence that refutes that.

I hate to be such a doom and gloomer

It has been said, "When an optimist is right, he expected it; when he's wrong he's disappointed. When a pessimist is right, he expected it; when he's wrong he gets a happy surprise." Black folk have a tradition of NOT getting their hopes up that's pretty reality-based.

That's why I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying be prepared for it to be different.

Then again, I'm not going to shit you. Watch the first post today.

A couple of days ago I heard from a white couple who were, at least publicly, seriously talking about voting for Obama. This would be, to put it mildly, a change of pace for them. They're conservative in any other sense you would care to name, but the Iraq war and economy have hit them where it hurts, and they were in enough pain to think about it. All that is now out the window as the new celebrity candidate has renewed their outlook on the Republicans. They are citing the Palin selection as the reason for rejoining the parade, and they're keeping a straight face.

Now what?

ProGeo-

Why do you think Palin has become the tiebreaker for this couple? She supports McCain's position about the war in Iraq and she has presented no policy prescriptions to fix the economy.

ptcruiser, I said Palin's the tiebreaker for the couple in question because they're against the war, and were considering straying from the Republican fold, until they caught Palin fever. They're still against the war and their economic status hasn't changed since last week. This is what we should probably keep in mind. It doesn't have to make sense. They've dropped Obama just because they feel good about Palin. We can argue that they weren't really ready for Obama in the first place, and that may be true. But my point is that they won't be the only ones.

So... if that's the electorate we're dealing with... now what?

No one expects a 100% landslide.

They're still against the war and their economic status hasn't changed since last week. This is what we should probably keep in mind. It doesn't have to make sense. They've dropped Obama just because they feel good about Palin. We can argue that they weren't really ready for Obama in the first place, and that may be true.

I'm pressing here because it is important for us to develop our own narrative about these people. I understood why you described the selection of Palin as a tiebreaker. What I am asking you is to dig a little deeper about these folks. Why, for example, were they ever considering a vote for Obama when their political views are decidely to the right of his political views? What, for example, was the basis of their dissatisfaction, if any, with McCain since his political views are more closely aligned with their own.

I'm not looking for their views to make sense. I am looking for a coherent narrative that explains their behavior. Rationality is not an essential element to their story.

What I am asking you is to dig a little deeper about these folks. Why, for example, were they ever considering a vote for Obama when their political views are decidely to the right of his political views? What, for example, was the basis of their dissatisfaction, if any, with McCain since his political views are more closely aligned with their own.

ptcruiser, thanks, I didn't get that from the original question. A bit of this is conjecture so I won't push it too far for the sake of creating a narrative. Here's what I think is going on: They're longtime Republicans with background in the South, Louisiana and Texas. Normally they'd just vote Republican and there would be no point in discussing it, but they're in that segment that is really not in favor of the Iraq war. "These people" are torn between party loyalty and the increasing American deaths and injuries for what even they believe is no good reason. I know a few other folks like this, including ex-military. Apparently even the most jingoistic need a good cause for dead American soldiers, and start to feel it when their candidate, POW or not, doesn't seem to care. This is not an easy thing for them.

Obama apparently reminds them of me (this is not conjecture) and of several other black folk they know who shatter their old stereotypes. I talk funny, meaning at least as well as they do but I don't rub it in, I dress "conservatively," I've been to college and I'm fairly well traveled. That makes Obama basically OK, still someone who normally wouldn't get the time of day in a national election, but with our status as role models, ahem, combined with his anti-Iraq war position, he got some play. With Palin's nomination, however, her strong ultra-right sensibility on everything else and the convention enthusiasm were too much to resist. For her, they'll put up with, or ignore, the war problem. I only have their word for it that Palin tipped the scales, and be aware they left the war out of it and just said who they'd vote for based on her nomination.

I beg your pardon, but if someone would answer this for me it would be greatly appreciated. Why doesn't the Obama campaign encourage every single solitary black voter to either vote early or mail in their ballot, given the voter disenfranchisement that takes place every year? If you look back to the Kerry campaign (believe me I'm not blaming black folks for Kerry's loss; in fact I think the main problem with the Kerry campaign was John Kerry) in 2004, apparently there was apathy in the black electorate and they didn't turn out to vote.
It seems like such a no-brainer, and with 2 months to go, there seems to be enough time to get black voters almost completely squared away to where on election day, most black people have already voted. It would also give 2 months for the enemies of justice to dispute the validity of the vote cast.

For her, they'll put up with, or ignore, the war problem. I only have their word for it that Palin tipped the scales, and be aware they left the war out of it and just said who they'd vote for based on her nomination.

The desire to realize Palin's vision of the United States trumps their dismay about the unnecessary deaths of their fellow Americans. She makes them happy to be conservatives no matter the costs. Interesting.

Why doesn't the Obama campaign encourage every single solitary black voter to either vote early or mail in their ballot, given the voter disenfranchisement that takes place every year?

I have no idea what the Obama campaign's GOTV strategy and tactics are but it should be obvious that it cannot make the sort of appeal you are suggesting only to black voters. Folks need to stop worrying and relax. Obama's campaign, at least at the ground level, will do whatever is necessary to win.

I agree. Obama is having a hard enough time getting white voters. Appealing to Black voters for votes do nothing but push white voters away and he knows this.

If as has been stated here that 94% of voting blacks are voting for Mr Obama, then the Obama campaign really needs to focus on attracting white voters. But remember that more than 50% of the voters selected Mr Bush during the last elections and that was after he plunged us into a stupid war in Iraq. So Mr Obama really needs to hustle and get the backbone of the Democratic party to vote for him - namely the white blue collar and white lower middle class. He cannot promise a chicken in every blacks pot because white voters would realize that he can only do so by taking the chickens from them.
And once Mr Obama is elected he will still have to deal with a mostly white congress.

He cannot promise a chicken in every blacks pot because white voters would realize that he can only do so by taking the chickens from them.

That belief lies (in both senses of the word) at the heart of all the white racism against Black people in this country.

So Mr Obama really needs to hustle and get the backbone of the Democratic party to vote for him - namely the white blue collar and white lower middle class.

Let's get real here and stop repeating MSM talking points! The lower white middle class deserted the presidential candidates, if not all of the candidates, of the Democratic Party in 1968. Okay? The backbone of the national Democratic Party is the black electorate, women and Jewish voters. The backbone of the party is not the "hardworking Americans, white Americans" that Hillary Clinton tried to mobilize on her behalf during the primary campaign. They hatted up a long time ago. It would be good if they came back and began voting for their real interests as opposed to their resentful and racist interests. In any case, please stop referring to these folks as the "backbone" of the Democratic Party.

He cannot promise a chicken in every blacks pot because white voters would realize that he can only do so by taking the chickens from them.

Black folks are not expecting Obama to either promise or give them a chicken for their pots. No black person except a right-wing conservative would write what you wrote. You should be ashamed of yourself. How dare you denigrate black folks' legitimate and well earned aspirational concerns as being a desire for a chicken in their pot. You couldn't be black and write such garbage.

You couldn't be black and write such garbage.

That's like saying you can't be Black and wrong as hell. 

You can be black and wrong as hell. I'm black and I don't have a lock on being right. What I can't understand is that if you are black why do you need to categorize black folks political behavior in the same terms that are used by their enemies.

Ok give McCain the republicans, the white lower middle class, the white blue collars, the christian right, the anti-abortion zealots, the no black president at any cost people, the white elderly, and what you have left is less than 50%. He has to pick up votes from somewhere.
(my 94% figure came from a post on this site, and you did not get all up in his face, and in michigan the white lower and middle class union people vote over 50% democratic and have since at least 1932)
from above - "there seems to be enough time to get black voters almost completely squared away to where on election day, most black people have already voted" - hmm seems to be putting black voters into a catagory.
from above - "one whole hell of a lot of white individuals voted for him over other white folks during the primaries" - Mr Obama has to keep these votes and win even more white voters. " and "but it should be obvious that it cannot make the sort of appeal you are suggesting only to black voters." because it would turn off white voters.

Ok give McCain the republicans, the white lower middle class, the white blue collars, the christian right, the anti-abortion zealots, the no black president at any cost people, the white elderly, and what you have left is less than 50%.

You got documentation, or should we just take your word and give up?

What I can't understand is that if you are black why do you need to categorize black folks political behavior in the same terms that are used by their enemies.

Because you've been really badly fooled.

I was asking rhetorically.

Prof. Geo, Gov. Palin seems to have become the Great White Hope. She's their Messiah. The McCain camp has done an excellent job of distracting voters with this pick. My opinion on the white couple you are referring to is that along with other white people, is that they are upset because it is their brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts, and grandkids being killed, while Jerome from the hood gets to walk around town carrying his boom box.

Excellent points about the Democratic voting base ptcruiser,
Hillary Clinton was left with older white men and women, blue collar workers, and Catholics, with which to build a coalition with. She doesn't deserve all of this credit for all of those blue collar votes, Mrs. Clinton actually said in the early nineties "F*** them Bill".

Jerome from the hood gets to walk around town carrying his boom box

Well, Jerome may get to stroll around town with his boom box but I'll bet you that Jerome's grandfathers, great-grandfathers and great uncles probably served in Vietnam, Korea and World War II and only got a hard way to go in return when they got came back to the states.

My opinion on the white couple you are referring to is that along with other white people, is that they are upset because it is their brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts, and grandkids being killed, while Jerome from the hood gets to walk around town carrying his boom box.

There weren't TOO upset if they changed their mind based on a speech. 

And what makes you think they think about Jerome from the hood at all? A lot of what Black folks think of as targeted racism is really just not giving a fuck about you in a hostile environment.

This might be a good place to drop this concept: we had a person come through here briefly when we were discussing the obviousness of this

Low-wage workers in the United States are gripped by increasing financial insecurity as they inch along an economic tightrope made riskier by pervasive job losses and rising prices. Many struggle to pay for life's basics -- housing, food and health care -- and most report having virtually no financial cushion should they stumble.

This woman said it was news to middle class whites who were only now being exposed to it. I asked, "Really? No poor cousins?" She said, "None that they would admit to." And I realized that was a key difference between Black and white culture...white culture believes in its class structure such that there's very little crosstalk between classes. That includes you. They don't want to think about you at all, and unless you are physically near them their reasoning rarely takes you into account ("you" can be defined by anything that affects one's level on the heirarchy).

http://www.bhamweekly.com/article.php?article_id=00946
"The citizens of northeast Alabama were shocked last week when the new Anniston mayor-elect credited his race-tinged victory to buying the black vote.
“I bought into the black corruption in Anniston. And it worked.”

Gene Robinson, interviewed by the Anniston Star, articulated this outrageous statement on Wednesday after Tuesday’s upset of two-term mayor Chip Howell. Robinson claimed to have paid two local black activists $2,650 to round up African-American voters on his behalf; and he credited his 3-1 margin in predominantly black areas for the stunning 52-48 percent victory. (The black duo likewise confirmed their service to his campaign.)

Robinson then explained that he had been offered the black vote for a price during his unsuccessful campaign four years ago, but he had refused that opportunity. “I said no in 2004, but I wanted to win so bad this year,” he said."

I just think that I am giving Black folk credit for brains for voting for Mr Obama. And I agree that a lot of what is thought of as racism is just not giving a damn about Blacks.

I saw nothing other than paying folks to work for his campaign. I can only speculate on why he chose to phrase it the way he did, just as I could only speculate on why Southern Illinois University Carbondale would sign a consent agreement admitting to discrimination against white men when the case under discussion was a federal program that they weren't even administrator of.

I don't think you actually like Black people, Ishmael. Just my opinion.

"the Department of Justice alleged that three graduate fellowship programs at SIUC, The Proactive Recruitment of Multicultural Professionals for Tomorrow ("PROMPT") program, The Bridge to the Doctorate ("BRIDGE") program and the GRADUATE DEANS program, violated equal opportunity laws because they were only open to specific minority and women groups."
" The Consent Decree will require the University to:

Prohibit the recruitment or employment of individuals in paid fellowship positions exclusively on the basis of race, nation origin, or sex.

Distribute the Consent Decree and equal employment language to various administrators and display it in certain locations on campus and in electronic form.

Discontinue any information that suggests that paid fellowship positions are restricted on the basis of race, national origin or sex.

Provide equal employment training to all academic recruiters and employees engaged in recruiting activities on behalf of the PROMPT, BRIDGE or GRADUATE DEAN'S fellowships.

And provide detailed reports on fellowship activities every 6 months for the life of the Consent Decree (2 years).

-total students in programs 28. But some white must have filed a compaint with the Feds. The University was beyond stupid in trying to prove their commitment to "diversity". All they had to do was hire the blacks under existing programs, but NOOOOOO - they has to make up stupid names and violate federal law. Double dumb asses. And then all they hired were 28 - triple dumb asses.

Mr Obama as President will have to enforce such laws. These laws were passed so that blacks and women could not be excluded from opportunities.
The downside of such laws is that whites and males can also not be excluded from opportunities. As I said before, Mr Obama will have to work with a white congress. They are not going to pass laws allowing dicrimination against whites. And if Mr Obama fails to enforce equal opportunity laws, the states will pass ammendments to outlaw discrimination as did CA. and Mi.

I don't think you actually like Black people, Ishmael. Just my opinion.

Apologies to William R. Robinson, but I second that emotion.

Reading past posts gives me the impression that Ishmael's view of black people is pre-skewed and independent of the subject dujour.

My views are skewed by my life experiences, just as yours are. I don’t think you like Blacks that do not agree with you. I think you hate non blacks. I think you are locked into an Us versus Them viewpoint. As the subject here is Random Thoughts how the hell could I be off subject?
over and out

Mr Obama as President will have to enforce such laws. These laws were passed so that blacks and women could not be excluded from opportunities.
The downside of such laws is that whites and males can also not be excluded from opportunities.

You know little of the case. This is one of the cases that only came to pass because the Justice Dept was ruined by Ashcroft and Gonzales' illegal hiring routine.No one complained. The case started as a request from the Attorney General's office.

More, the program they were after was run by the National Science Foundation, and SIUC was participating in a grant administered by University of Chicago. The law suit did nothing to the program, only to SIUC. And a Justice Dept. lawyer would understand that as well as SIUC's Chancellor would. Which means they were setting precedent.

The situation was created and manipulated. President Obama's job will include preventing such bullshit. But it has to be noticed.

As the subject here is Random Thoughts how the hell could I be off subject?

Where did anyone say you were off subject?

I don’t think you like Blacks that do not agree with you. I think you hate non blacks.

I am the last one to claim I like everyone. On the other hand, your assertions here are full of shit. You simply can't find any evidence of either, though particular people piss me off.

And I note you're honest enough not to deny my observation.

Like you "I am the last one to claim I like everyone". Its true I moved from Detroit, but so did Dave Bing, Aretha Franklin (her father was murdered in Detroit), and even the former Police Chief Hart (who stole millions from the Detroit Police Department) set up his mistress in an place outside of Detroit. I do not like all blacks. I do not like most whites. I hate corrupt government. I hate people that hurt, kill, or steal.
I can only infer from your statement that you do not like all blacks otherwise we would be pals.
As to SIUC it does not matter who complained or started the action against SIUC. The point is that the programs were blatantly against federal law and SIUC recognized that the were screwed otherwise they would have fought the agreement.

Ishmael, I haven't asked anyone to justify themselves. So know none of that makes any difference to me. I gauge folks by their behavior

And every civil rights action initiated by the Justice Dept since 2000 is questionable. The transformation of the department as a whole into a political instrument is well documented.

P6, They've changed their mind because, they feel like their interests and/or identities are being fully represented now, and they're energized. I doubt that they were really ever considering Obama seriously.
McCain says the surge has worked, and he will press that. They get to vote Palin as a historic first. McCain is the P.O.W. grandpa, that sits in the rocker, while the kids sit on the floor and listen to war stories, and Palin is his daughter; the classic WASP, Chrysler minivan driver, that are the "red-blooded Americans" of the country. These people are fickle, and of course they can go both ways, but they are very susceptible to being duped into thinking that the effort is honorable, and they are emotional, but not when it comes to race. The point is that these voters that the professor speaks of are waffling back and forth over the question of whether or not this war is noble, and worthwhile. McCain's only task is to assure them that it is.

sall et al., I was hesitant to generalize from just a couple of people but it's probably safe to say they're seeing their overall conservative, change-resistant worldview supported by McCain/Palin, and their decision doesn't directly affect their lives either way over the short term. So they can afford to be fickle on appearances and feel-good only, while others (we) cannot. I think P6 also homed in on this in saying, "white culture believes in its class structure such that there's very little crosstalk between classes. That includes you. They don't want to think about you at all, and unless you are physically near them their reasoning rarely takes you into account..."