Prometheus 6

Oh, [black college grad] Twitter was all abuzz with this after he gave a talk about it at Morehouse a few weeks ago. He seems like a really cool guy.

Black feminists have been saying this for a long time.

On one hand, I think what he is saying is very true. On the other, I think he is trivializing the concept of privilege. I think in many ways, in American society, Black women are very low on the socioeconomic rung, so almost any group, you could argue privilege with respect to black women.

But you could also argue Black woman privilege if you look at specific statistics and specific groups. Look at college enrollment compared to black men, for instance. You could talk about black woman privilege with respect to native american women. Black women don't have much interaction with native american women, but a white man doesn't have to leave his enclave for me to say he is privileged with respect to me.

It seems that the professors went down a list of factors, found that he checked off more that favored black men, and concluded that black males have privilege. And some of his reasons look weak to me. The fact that black men can go to Rio and date black women there, I don't see as a privilege over black women. Black women of the same means have the same options to go to Rio or Nairobi and find black men.

i think about this in two ways:

1. issue construction

the issues that white supremacy causes for black men tend to become black issues, as opposed to black men's issues. the issues that black women have on the other hand tend to become women's issues (if they become issues at all) or perhaps black women's issues, but very rarely black issues.

2. resource allocation

now this is the tricky part. if we look solely at college admissions for example, it's clear that black women are getting most of the slots, no matter what the educational setting, unless we're talking about all-male contexts.

but not only is the absence of black men in these contexts a "black issue", but those few men who are able to make it through end up getting the lion's share of whatever resources are left over. comparing the salaries of black male college graduates to black female college graduates for example, i'm thinking that black men make more money than their female counterparts. perhaps they become partner/get tenure quicker. their marriage rates are better. they have more sexual partners.

maybe privilege is the wrong word. but the phenomenon is real.

the issues that black women have on the other hand tend to become women's issues (if they become issues at all) or perhaps black women's issues, but very rarely black issues.

Excellent point! I heard Lewis on the radio last week and I agreed with his take on this issue. What troubles me. however, is how too many black women defer or, better yet, acquiesce to this process instead of speaking out. Their deference, in my opinion, only serves to promote a trainload of attendant issues between black women and men that are increasingly difficult to resolve.

the issues that white supremacy causes for black men tend to become black issues, as opposed to black men's issues. the issues that black women have on the other hand tend to become women's issues (if they become issues at all) or perhaps black women's issues, but very rarely black issues.

Serious question: does white supremacy create different issues for Black women than Black men? I'm not asking about disparate reactions, I'm asking about disparate root issues.

I do have issues with the way this discussion comes together. Black women have class privilege in comparison to Black men...I'm sorry, but I simply do not accept the "I'm not talking about while male privilege vs. Black male privilege." Male privilege only kicks in at a certain class level. Below that, everyone is dirt. And it's harder to get to that class status when you're Black, male or female but once you do, you "qualify" for gender based treatment.

In my view, multiple factors come into play, and I feel Prof. Lewis is looking at it through one eye.

After the first three minutes of this I had to force myself to listened to the rest of this bullshit. Look at the prisons, college campus enrollments, Black unemployment rates of Black men vs. Black women. Since the first slaves landed in the USofA this society has done everything in its power to destroy any advancement in the Black community, starting with excluding Black men from the family (which is still ongoing), with frightening success. This brown nose speak of having "made it though the crisis" as if the crisis is over for Black men. And I'd like to know just what jobs he his referring to when he speaks of jobs that provide the "greatest amount of security" because the last time I looked the Black community don't really have a lot of "secure" employment options left to it, least of all to Black men.

Serious question: does white supremacy create different issues for Black women than Black men?

Yes and no but black women and black men do suffer individually and collectively in different and similar ways as a result of white supremacy. I suspect that the professor should have first made his case to black folks before appearing on NPR's Tell Me More program because the nuances and subtleties of his argument are never, ever going to be explored within the mainstream media even if black folks are serving as the hosts or interviewers.

Just came out of conference mode (CENIC 2010) and still getting reoriented  but there were a few things about "black male privilege" I found of interest and/or concern.

-- I'm going into this with a bias that "privilege" is an inappropriate term for what's being described. It seems he is trying to use it in a specific way that is likely to be abused, and then we'll have to deal with that. Duly noted that I don't have a better term (yet).

-- I find it interesting that it takes a man to bring this up from a feminist perspective in a way that gets male attention.

-- I've experienced privilege that was distinctly male, but not black male. For example, the military integration of women into formerly all-male units changed my class status and my perceived class status. It became obvious that "even" a black male might rate above any female assigned similar duties. The default was (and is) straight white male in that arena but no privilege seemed distinct to the black male.

-- The "kid in the candy store" experience of the safe black on campus who is getting educated and is not in the justice system doesn't strike me as a position of privilege, at least not "black male privilege." Since I'm on the inside here I have to consider that one some more, though.

Will add more as I have time today.

Serious question: does white supremacy create different issues for Black women than Black men?

Absolutely!! The struggles of Black men are different (not saying harder, but different) from Black women. But to say that Black men somehow have some privilege over Black women given how Black men remain under attack in ways Black women aren't is completly offensive to say the least. To me, to try to compare the two struggles is to do a gross injustice to both.  

I find it interesting that it takes a man to bring this up from a feminist perspective in a way that gets male attention.

I believe it was the venue in which the discussion appeared as much as, if not more than,  the maleness of the presenter that got a response this time.

I will also note that I saw the list of proposed Black male in 2008. I blew it off, gently...and this is coming from a person that DOES include the whole community in his concerns. Here's the post, since lotsa folks don't follow links and (for some reason) no comments were made on it.

I don't see any new arguments here.

This brother needs to work on his stuff if he wants it to be useful 

Jewel Woods dropped a link on the H-AFRO-AM mailing list to his Black Male Privilege Checklist. I think it only fair to say up front, he and Karen Hunter authored Don't Blame It on Rio: The Real Deal Behind Why Men Go to Brazil for Sex, which I place in the same class as On the Down Low: A Journey into the Lives of 'Straight' Black Men Who Sleep with Men, a book that started all manner of unnecessary shit, and the periodic Essence articles on "Why I Don't Date Black Women." Some of you will agree with me, some will not. Ebony Magazine interviewed him about the book and he posted the interview on his site.

What led you to write Don't Blame It On Rio: The Real Deal Behind why Men Go to Brazil for Sex?
Answer: The short answer to this question is that the book is a response to an article written in Essence Magazine that originally brought attention to this phenomenon. I thought the writer -Jelani Cobb- did an excellent job of introducing the topic, but that the article was understandably circumscribed by its length and limited by its lack of exposure and lack of knowledge concerning the complex issues that were involved. Overall, I thought the Essence article "exposed" the phenomena but ultimately did not "shed light" into the profound realities & crisis of masculinity, morality, and male privilege that black men are confronted with and so I thought the book would be a more appropriate response.

The longer answer to this question is embedded in my personal history. I have spent all of my adult life working on men's issues and several years trying to understand this particular phenomenon of men traveling overseas to find what they think they cannot get in America and/or from black women. One of the way's that I have tried to explain to people how I became aware of these issues is that I went to the academy to learn about men, but I stepped out of the academy to learn from men. When I received a New Voices Fellowship in 2005, it allowed me to work full-time on men's issues, I was primarily interested in the question of how could I get more men of color involved in social welfare and social justice issues; especially initiatives that were aimed at reducing violence against women. One of the things that became very apparent to me in talking with men, was that it was not just the men without jobs or who were marginally connected to the economy that were not active or involved in community initiatives. It was also men with jobs whose issues and stories were not being examined, explored, or exposed. So taking all theses issues into consideration, this is a book that I have been working on all of my adult life because of my interest in men's lives and a belief in men's capacity to change.

 

Having a daughter who is the target of, like, 40% of my capacity to love makes me quite aware of gender issues. So I decided to approach his list with an open mind. Because men flex on women irrespective of race, I though maybe he might have something useful. Unfortunately, I can't advise folks to use his list for a teaching tool as it stands.

The central problem with the list is a confusion of type and instance. To show you what I mean, lets look at the privileges he lists under the category, Power and Leadership.

1. I don't have to choose my race over my sex in political matters.
2. When I read African American History textbooks, I will learn mainly about black men.
3. When I learn about the Civil Rights Movement & the Black Power Movements, most of the leaders that I will learn about will be black men.
4. I can rely on the fact that in the near 100-year history of national civil rights organizations such as the NAACP and the Urban League, virtually all of the executive directors have been male.
5. I will be taken more seriously as a political leader than black women.
6. Despite the substantial role that black women played in the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power Movement, currently there is no black female that is considered a "race leader".
7. I can live my life without ever having read black feminist authors, or knowing about black women's history, or black women's issues.
8. I can be a part of a black liberation organization like the Black Panther Party where an "out" rapist Eldridge Cleaver can assume leadership position.
9. I will make more money than black women at equal levels of education and occupation.
10. Most of the national "opinion framers" in Black America including talk show hosts and politicians are men.

 

To my mind, items 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 10 are aspects of a single situation, which is  the patriarchal nature of our culture. The next section, Beauty, has four instances of a single situation, which is the general acceptance of a European standard of beauty. And this inflation goes on through a total of ten categories producing 94 "Black Male Privileges," some of which are so erroneous

I have the ability to define black women's beauty by European standards in terms of skin tone, hair, and body size. In comparison, black women rarely define me by European standards of beauty in terms of skin tone, hair, or body size.

 

...they should not be listed as instances, much less types.

This is a problem because if you really want to teach and correct this, you have to get to first principles. You can use all these 94 things if you like, but as examples. I wouldn't advise it...some of the are flat ridiculous as examples of male privilege, much less Black male privilege.

35. I can wear a shirt that others and I commonly refer to as a "wife beater" and never have the language challenged.
36. Many of my favorite movies include images of strength that do not include members of the opposite sex and often are based on violence.
37. Many of my favorite genres of films, such as martial arts, are based on violence.
38. I have the privilege of popularizing or consuming the idea of a thug, which is based on the violence and victimization of others with virtually no opposition from other men.

 

This list strikes me as an attempt to prove sensitivity at the expense of sensibilty at best and nit-picky at worst. But, as i said, men flex on women across racial boundaries. I have no problem with folks wanting to work on that. I just don't want it done in a way that makes men blow you off.

I believe it was the venue in which the discussion appeared as much as, if not more than,  the maleness of the presenter that got a response this time.

NPR & Michel Martin (woman) asking Lewis the questions, yes, that's different than Jewel Woods posting a list on his blog. On closer read, Woods in his original also differentiates between privilege singular and privileges plural. This wasn't trivial to him so I'm pointing it out for that reason.

Also 2008 isn't 2010 as we are also in a black male presidential era. A black male is visibly getting über-privileges (some of which may correspond to Lewis's argument and some of which may not). This, even if unspoken, alters the context of the discussion.

[BTW I haven't clicked through to watch Lewis's address at Morehouse so I'm only going by the NPR interview.]

Male privilege only kicks in at a certain class level. Below that, everyone is dirt.

Lewis recognizes this. And this is what I meant when I said "those few men who are able to make it through end up getting the lion's share of whatever resources are left over." As an aside I think this is spreading to white communities as well, in as much as white working class success was--as was black--built upon the manufacturing sector rather than the service sector.

Serious question: does white supremacy create different issues for Black women than Black men? I'm not asking about disparate reactions, I'm asking about disparate root issues.

Police brutality is a black male's issue, though black women are indirectly affected. Single motherhood is a black women's issue, though black men are indirectly affected. All reproductive health issues are black women's issues though black men are indirectly affected.

And this is what I meant when I said "those few men who are able to make it through end up getting the lion's share of whatever resources are left over."

Now, is this a property of Black men, or of the society we operate in?

Should we ask Black women to stop going to college so damn much until Black men catch up?

Police brutality is a black male's issue,

Okay, I'll give that one up.

Single motherhood is a black women's issue

But this one was a Black issue when it was referred to as the "welfare queen" problem, or the out-of-wedlock birth problem.

All reproductive health issues are black women's issues though black men are indirectly affected.

And this one is a woman's issue, not specifically a Black women's issue.

A black male is visibly getting über-privileges (some of which may correspond to Lewis's argument and some of which may not). This, even if unspoken, alters the context of the discussion.

How?

Single motherhood is a black women's issue, though black men are indirectly affected.

Mm, no. Black men are directly affected. I have nephews to prove it.

kspence also said:

"those few men who are able to make it through end up getting the lion's share of whatever resources are left over." As an aside I think this is spreading to white communities as well

I meant generally the imagery of a Black man visibly in full charge, protected by (mostly) white security, giving orders to white folks, feet on desk... but I'll try to flesh it out.

In a sense more specific to Lewis, I'll illustrate since i sort of lived it this past week at a techie/educator conference. In that hotel ballroom with national and industry representation, it was obvious there were 2 black men besides me, and only a few other people o' color. In some sessions I was the only black person. OK, I been there before. But I realized in one intense session that something was different, mood-wise, as STEM education for women & minorities (alternately, unserved and underserved populations) was being discussed. There I was in my good jacket & tie, and-- ah-- they didn't know who I knew (besides the guy who dragged me into the session) and they didn't require a lot of extra validation to hear me. Eventually they figured out I didn't have a hotline back to DC but by then I was in there on my own.

I don't think I imagined this changed context. Several days into this topic, I'm less enamored of Lewis's hierarchical structure-- "black male privilege" is initially confined to "in relation to black females" and I see that as problematic, since we're in a larger system along with black females.

Male privilege only kicks in at a certain class level

Is that how actual privilege works? I haven’t read DuBois in over a decade and a half and even then it was only excerpts. But my memory was he explained white privilege as an unearned wage (psychological and social wage). And that it followed that the more tenuous someone’s hold on any actual wage the more they would want to hold tightly onto maintaining that psychological and social wage. I’m not sure if that also means that the bigger your actual wage the more you are willing to symbolically divest from that unearned privilege. But memory was that the idea was that white privilege (and one could assume male privilege) are structuring agents that help maintain white power/male power but it’s tool of power not necessarily power.

All of that is side issue, as most of the Woods stuff comes off really corny and simplistic to me. He doesn’t seem to be asking any interesting questions. What is the relationship between privilege and power? There doesn’t seem to be anything uniquely black about most of the male privileges he lists.  There is no question as to how male privilege works among blacks, does it diifer form how it operates among whites? Does it work as tool for white patriarchy, within it, independent, dependent, seperate at all? Whose interests does it serve? What makes it unique? Notable?