This one isn't because I'm annoyed, it's just something you need to know

*pulling up a ringside seat*

this is where DW gets to show us his chops, right?  cuz i'd sho lak to heah a reasoned, intelligible response to this piece from a reliable informant. 

Jensen is free to discuss his own fears of course, but his experience and mine (and those I know well) just don't much match.  Maybe it's because we're not from the South.

There is one exception.  Jensen offers a story of interaction with black academics, and says:

In that particular moment, for a white academic on an O.J. panel, my fear was of being exposed as a fraud or some kind of closet racist. Even if I thought I knew what I was talking about and was being appropriately anti-racist in my analysis, I was afraid that some lingering trace of racism would show through, and that my black colleague would identify it for all in the room to see.

I do think this is a generally applicable fear of white people in such a context. 

sorry for the snarky comment, DW. 

seriously, i'm asking you for a reflective moment.  do any of Jensen's explanations ring true - why or why not?  the explanation you offer (being in a geographical location where whites are a minority) does little to explain your interior thought processes...and kinda makes me feel like you're blowing me (us) off.

do any of Jensen's explanations ring true - why or why not? the explanation you offer (being in a geographical location where whites are a minority) does little to explain your interior thought processes...and kinda makes me feel like you're blowing me (us) off.

That's why I went back and read the entire article.

I'm not sure why P6 picked the imagined fear of being the minority to cite, but it does seem relevant to reply that the counter-experience (actually living as a minority) works fine.

As to fear of losing privilege, I can tell you that I never experienced having racial privilege. Never. Doesn't mean I'm claiming that I didn't benefit from being white. It does mean that one can't fear losing something which one doesn't actually feel one has. Since I've been posting here I've come to be more aware of white privilege, but it's still very abstract, something which doesn't apply to me or in my context.

The reality of California is that racial issues are not black and white. There's the three "successful" races (mongoloid, Indian, and caucasian). You can find many upscale neighborhoods and professionally oriented companies formed with no majority among these three. They mix almost effortlessly. This collection is one side of the racial divide, and includes some Mexicans. However, most Mexicans and African Americans are on the other side of the divide.

So being white in this context does not grant one any more privilege than being Chinese. I can't actually identify any privilege at all, but the racial divide surely exists, and is well understood by pretty much everyone, so presumably some people in some contexts react differently based on which side you're on.

I recall that's because you don't speak to them about your race issues. Afraid you'll lose friends.

Among Chinese, Indian, and whites race issues can be readily discussed, even readily joked about with no fear. Mexicans are usually open to discuss racial issues. The race discussion stress is between me and blacks.

I think my experience with PT illustrates what goes wrong. In truth, I have come to value PT in my life; I'm more than willing to avoid saying things which would cause him to break away from me. I value PT's insights on music far more than I value reading my own political opinion. But PT interprets my analysis of the Bennett affair as an insult which is at odds with friendship. I think I've worked through how that went from PT's perspective, but there was just no way I would have anticipated that reaction ahead of time. Except that I knew it was possible or even likely for that kind of thing to go wrong.

a book modeling successful resolutions of racially "difficult" situations from both sides of the situation

the fact that you can intellectually acknowledge privilege yet refuse to critically examine the ways in which you might have benefited from it is itself a privileged position

DW thinks a book modeling successful resolutions of racially "difficult" situations from both sides of the situation would

1. help people understand successful resolution is possible through a reasoned approach to the other
2. give them a starting point and direction in which to travel

at this point, i would identify you as a WMwP: Well Meaning white Person.

Ok. I mean well.

Such whites are especially dangerous because they consider themselves to be 'comfortable' with minorities ...

I thank y'all for protecting me from that particular delusion. I'm in very good hands.

Q: have the 90% white people gained privilege?

I don't experience privilege over black people.

i mean, isn't the prevailing assumption about native americans that they were simply in the way of progress - and needed to get bumped off - and while they might not be better off for it, the rest of the world is - and that's an acceptable trade off.

One can see what you're aiming at there T3, but I don't think that's a correct analysis. It's overly civilized, eh?

The primary point of the analysis is that the first inhabitants of the western hemisphere could not defend the territory against the invaders.

How do you construct whiteness or white people without a black referent? You do so with any other "other" that happens to be handy. In other words, those with whom you are familiar and with whom you differ in matters of language, religion, custom supply the lexicon and concepts of "difference" that constitute the buidling blocks of your own identity. The mechanism, process and content for defining yourself in relation or even opposition to "them" is already present (say in the formulation "low country Irish" versus "highland Irish" or some such). The distinctions that already exist (especially if the identity-forming process is one of opposition) then lend themselves readily to application to any other "others" subsequently encountered.

I agree with the concept here O.  Any large body of people will by nature identify preferred characteristics.  Frequently those preferred characteristics will be whims of birth (unearned).  People with those characteristics will enjoy whatever benefit falls from the preference.

What we can observe however is that it's broader than "whiteness".  It might not be racial at all.  Racial preference is a particular form of a broader phenomenom.

Thus, we cannot say that our abstract Ireland had created "whiteness".  We can say they had created privilege.  We can say that the privilege works similar to racial preference in America. But it would be incorrect  to dub all such privilege "whiteness". 

A concise example of a privileged class are the European royalty.  We wouldn't describe them as "extremely white".

A concise example of a privileged class are the European royalty. We wouldn't describe them as "extremely white".

Any examination of the modus operandi of euroseignurialism and how the clans that have perpetrated hereditary rulership of their european subordinates would certainly suggest such a usage.

It's metaphoric rather than descriptive.

It's metaphoric rather than descriptive.

Membership in a brotherhood is theoretically a voluntary matter unrelated to kinship. However, lineages are often affiliated with a specific brotherhood and a man usually joins his father's order. Initiation is followed by a ceremony during which the order's dhikr is celebrated. Novices swear to accept the branch head as their spiritual guide. Each order has its own hierarchy that is supposedly a substitute for the kin group from which the members have separated themselves. Veneration is given to previous heads of the order, known as the Chain of Blessing, rather than to ancestors. This practice is especially followed in the south, where place of residence tends to have more significance than lineage. Leaders of orders and their branches and of specific congregations are said to have baraka, a state of blessedness implying an inner spiritual power that is inherent in the religious office and may cling to the tomb of a revered leader, who, upon death, is considered a saint. However, some saints are venerated because of their religious reputations whether or not they were associated with an order or one of its communities. Sainthood also has been ascribed to others because of their status as founders of clans or large lineages. Northern pastoral nomads are likely to honor lineage founders as saints; sedentary Somalis revere saints for their piety and baraka.

"Consideration of the primacy of kinship vectors within abrahamic culturotypes, as specifically expressed in arabic tribalism, Islamic thought, and religious practice - will complete the set."

As you point out, these are important issues to parse and synthesize in this ongoing discussion. For example, contradictions abound in Arab kinship vectors when they are extended into the domain of the African "other" through concubinage and intermarriage. These contradictions gave rise to status or identity labels such as "son of a black woman" (considered an insult) and "son of a white woman" (considered a compliment), as revealed by popular historical Arabic idioms.

Of further note, it is estimated the Atlantic or Euro-America trade in enslaved Africans shipped roughly two males for every female. The Islamic trade shipped roughly two females for every male. What does that reveal about "Arab" kinship vectors?

Please continue, cnulan. Connecting the dots has ignited some synapses that haven't fired in awhile.

"This question has no answer except in the history of how it came to be asked. There is no answer because words have meaning, not life or persons or the universe itself. Our search for certainty rests in our attempts at understanding the history of all individual selves and all civilizations. Beyond that, there is only awe."

Do you doubt your own agency?

Are you human or some different order of being?

Take the real consciousness out of the overlay of conditioning that obscures it

That's about the content of consciousness.

You know that...or do I have to find your comment about conscioussness being independant?

how is it that they only come to be recognized subjectively and not at all indistinguishable or separate from the person in whose psychological substrate they may reside?

I have decided that this is damn near impossible because instead of addressing my question to you in the spirit in which it was intended

I read it twice and spent a few minutes or more every once in a while over the years since then trying to imagine how one would see the world in terms of Jaynes' description of the unicameral mind.

i grow increasingly frustrated with the efforts to link the explicit nature of rap music and videos to the decline in morals and economic opportunity in the Black community.  I could have sworn the "magic bullet" theory of media consumption was discredited years ago, but everytime i turn around another self-proclaimed cultural arbiter is arguing that rap music is the problem.

One goal of black cultural products has sought to put into discourse conditions existing in black communities. Despite a larger Black middle class than ever, hip hop artists are still hyperaware of the conditions of poverty, environmental racism, and structural inequity in justice and educational systems.  The only reason they ain't rappin about structural inequities in health care is probably because they're young and the young don't give a damn about that stuff.  The greatest irony of hip hop is that images of bLInding poverty and decaying infrastructures are broadcast daily and nobody tries to address THOSE problems...

it's much easier to kill the messenger.

if you stopped all the rappers right now; destroyed the videos; shut down the clubs - would the conditions that engendered that discourse change one iota?  

The era most commonly cited as the "golden era" of hip hop - 1990-1994 - for some reason also coincided with the receding of the crack epidemic (which never ever focused on the HUGE numbers of white crackheads - i served a few of em myself).  In new york city, the financial services industry which had been gathering strength while David Dinkins  was Mayor EXPLODED during Giuliani's tenure and suddenly we were making money.  New York hip hop reflected that.

but strangely enough, the South and the West weren't making money like new york was...and that was reflected in their hip hop.  New Orleans hip hop is a damned good reflection of that, with its repeated references to the poverty and restricted social mobility.  Those rappers sold hundreds of thousands of records before they had national distribution because they were talking about life in their world. 

This isn't a defense of rap or foul-mouthed MC's.  One reason i come here is to read critical thinkers talk about being Black and making this discourse a reality.  Don't do the kneejerk thing about a Black cultural product - it's beneath y'all. (apologies to T3 and cnulan - this rant is more a response to conversations i've been having on campus and in public).

moreover, contemplation of genocide is fundamental to white identity. it's the cauc version of 'waiting to exhale.' similarly, the conflation of blacks and crime is the epicenter of white identity. these fools still believe they live in a democracy and that the founding fathers were on some liberty shit. straight crack smokin'. these are the same folks who raise the spectre of black rapists in a world where white women go OUT of their way to get some rhythm, to put it mildly. it's all about the overcompensation in the face of a debilitating deficiency.

 What are you gonna do to put a dollar in MY pocket TODAY?

... it's why i've said BLACK CONSERVATIVES will make NO HEADWAY until they are the leading employers, providers, educators for black folk. cobb and his crew on some ill ishiznit if they folks will be motivated to follow that rhetoric...

That's why certain Black CONservative claims to be the reincarnation/descendants of Booker T. ring hollow.  Instead of using their 'popularity' with White America to use it towards some productive ends for the Black Community they prefer to Relish In The Rhetoric.

The whole Bill Cosby flap made me immediately question what Black Conservatives and other African-Americans with a cross-over appeal doing with that popularity.  When Black Conservatives, etc. can connect with all sorts of foundation funding for voucher initiatives, e.g., where are the schools, like Booker T.'s that Black Conservatives have advocated for and/or built for the Black Community out of those schemes?  How come Bill Cosby isn't supporting via his celebrity and "stature" something like the Harlem Children's Zone?

My immediate challenge for the Cosby-ites was for Cosby to establish a Black Education foundation to rival the type of money that goes into voucher foundations.  Cosby pretended to be so concerned about Dropout Rates then let's see him use that profound celebrity to put and [fund]raise money where his (their) mouth is.  And now, considering how Geoffrey Canada has been named of one of America's Best Leaders, there is absolutely no excuse.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/051031/31canada.htm 

Cosby has put his money where his mouth is...he put $20 million in Spelman's coffers.

In a word: NO!  Cosby contribution to Spelman has little to do with the Lower Economic, "these people" need Hooked On Phonics K- 12 youth he lamblasted.  Spelman = College;  K-12 = pre-college.  Cosby talked about (referenced) K-12 Dropouts, not College Dropouts - i.e. NOT putting his money where his mouth is.

My point was not saying or disregarding Cosby's contributions, in total.  They were, however, focused on what he has done and, more specifically, can do specifically to address what he was talking about.  Ummm... Donating money to Spelman is kinda late.

Please direct your comments to this:  My immediate challenge for the Cosby-ites was for Cosby to establish a Black Education foundation to rival the type of money that goes into voucher foundations.

Funny, you talked so much about how HCZ is financed by Whites but when I raised the issue of Cosby and the like being the principal fundraiser to not only finance but replicate models like a HCZ, e.g., then you fall back on some off-the-topic "Litmus Test" idea talking widely about "Cosby's Commitment To Black People" when what I said and spoke about was "narrowly tailored" to a direct and timely intervention on the very thing Cosby professed to be outraged by.

But you can explain how $20 million dollars to Spelman does something directly and significantly for "those people" who need "Hooked On Phonics."

HCZ is not strapped for cash...they could always use more, but they're not strapped.

Question?   Was Cosby talking only about Harlem? 

Answer:  NO....   Then why are you?

Please note:  Voucher campaigns and their financing is about funding and replicating successful models, in the plural.  Why, again, are you stuck in Harlem?  What part of the words "something like" confused you?  What part of those words meant "only this, only there" to you?

Also, what part of the context was lost on you? 
Now, go back.  Look at what I responded to and how I responded to it.  Make sure you pay particular attention to the first paragraph written and please don't forget all of those in the context of what I responded to.  

My essential contentions are simple...the HCZ is a model for somethings, but not all things and my post outlined some of the ways in which it would not be ideal - namely the source of its funding - which dovetails nicely with your identification of the need for a black fund. 

And you essentially missed the "point of confluence" as you highlighted the White funding that goes into the HCZ but somehow seemed to get confused by what I clearly said. 

That's why certain Black CONservative claims to be the reincarnation/descendants of Booker T. ring hollow.  Instead of using their 'popularity' with White America to use it towards some productive ends for the Black Community they prefer to Relish In The Rhetoric.

Umm... That's me essentially saying, whether "ideal" or no, that if Black CONservatives, Bill Cosby or the Wonder Twins can use their "cross-over" appeal to fund "something like" the HCZ, etc., etc., etc. towards some Booker T. type of educational ends that [1] come from the noted vision of an African-American directed towards an African-American project and [2] produce results then... OKAY!

calling out millions because they haven't spent money somewhere you think they should sort of spend their money is pissing in the wind. 

Ummm... Pay attention.  What does the word FUND and RAISE... [Fundraise and Foundation] have to do with a call for [Black people] to "spend money"?   Simply, it does not.  Simply, I did not say one single thing about where Cosby spends his money until your went off the ranch with your idea of a "Litmus Test" making something about his and B-Con's ability, IMO, to use their popularity and appeal with White America to FUNDRAISE for Black Causes.

"Cosby pretended to be so concerned about Dropout Rates then let's see him use that profound celebrity to put and [fund]raise money where his (their) mouth is."

The overwhelming bulk of what I said was based on getting that "tremendous institutional capital" you referenced.  So, somehow you got confused about this "Black Fund" thing.  Now, I could explain to you how to read to comprehend and search for main ideas, if you like.  I can also help you understand the role and purpose of a conjunction.  I could continue and requote everything I said and place further emphasis on the plain English and meaning behind using celebrity, stature, appeal, popularity WITH WHITE AMERICA...  But I think you get my point, even though you've tried so hard to confuse it.

Let me know when you're out of Harlem...

Second, one of the "surprising" empirical finds of recent studies is that poorer black folk have been grinding to make serious academic gains and have been the group that is driving the education engine in for black folk...simply, most of your college folks are not coming from middle or upper-middle class backgrounds - but from poorer and working class black families.

Please dazzle and "surprise" me with factoids that are [1] relevant and [2] unknown.  But you can explain how such a factoid indicate Cosby's Spelman contribution is a direct contribution/intervention to the K-12 process of getting "those Lower Economic" folk, whom he felt where not "holding up their end of the bargain" (ummm... did you bother to inform him of those factoids?)...  You know, those who are Dropping Out. 

Now, maybe with Steam, Smoke & Mirrors you can turn a high school dropout into a college applicant.  But, suffice it to say, you're fresh out of tricks when you can't manage to read simple English.

But, go ahead...  Tell me exactly how using their 'popularity' with White America to use it towards some productive ends for the Black Community amounts to this "Litmus Test" of a Black [Only] Fund you dreamed up.

This is getting silly - so let's move beyond proclamation to demonstration and keep it there.

"That's why certain Black CONservative claims to be the reincarnation/descendants of Booker T. ring hollow. Instead of using their 'popularity' with White America to use it towards some productive ends for the Black Community they prefer to Relish In The Rhetoric.

The whole Bill Cosby flap made me immediately question what Black Conservatives and other African-Americans with a cross-over appeal doing with that popularity. When Black Conservatives, etc. can connect with all sorts of foundation funding for voucher initiatives, e.g., where are the schools, like Booker T.'s that Black Conservatives have advocated for and/or built for the Black Community out of those schemes? How come Bill Cosby isn't supporting via his celebrity and "stature" something like the Harlem Children's Zone?

My immediate challenge for the Cosby-ites was for Cosby to establish a Black Education foundation to rival the type of money that goes into voucher foundations. Cosby pretended to be so concerned about Dropout Rates then let's see him use that profound celebrity to put and [fund]raise money where his (their) mouth is. And now, considering how Geoffrey Canada has been named of one of America's Best Leaders, there is absolutely no excuse."

We parted ways in this section of your post. Since the first paragraph was based, in part, on one of my posts, I certainly agree with you. I believe our difference of opinion stems from your linking Bill Cosby to political and economic conservatives when his TRACK RECORD indicates he is clearly a "liberal democrat" and his SOCIAL CONSERVATISM (proclamations of personal opinion - not yet tied to an economic or political program of his own) is reverberating in millions of homes across Black America. So, it does not make analytic sense to view him the way one might look at Thomas Sowell or Clarence Thomas or Shelby Steele or LaShawn Barber. His conservatism is an expression of old-school values, some knee-jerk reactions and years of frustration...it is not an expression of a subsidized sell out to peddle influence among black folk to wealthy white folk (along the lines of Ward Connerly or Armstrong Williams or Juan Williams). Cosby's political support, campaigning efforts, fundraising, cultural creations (TV shows, cartoons, movies, etc.) are not expressions that are consonant with placing him among the Political and Economic conservatives of this era. Socially, he is as conservative as always - and he is the same guy who admonished Eddie Murphy about using profanity in his act over 20 years ago. These nuances, to my mind, suggest that he be viewed through a broader human lens that denies easy categorization or dismissal.

To suggest that Cosby "pretended to be so concerned about Dropout Rates..." probably says more about you than it does about him. His entire life has been about emphasizing the importance of education. Whether it was pursuing a PH.D. in later years, raising a child who was an educator, creating the values-laden cartoon "Fat Albert," the values-laden sitcom "The Cosby Show" (where not every one went to college or was an "academic superstar" - but where everyone understood his commitment to education), to building a foundation that provided Chicago's Public School system with 40,000 children's books or giving $20 million to Spelman - the track record is there. And there's more...in some circles, Cosby is viewed as the shining example of education philanthropy - take this example - http://www.assocblackcharities.org/about/about.shtml - and check out the link for their annual giving award...At the very least, your suggestion is dishonest. At worst, it is a deliberate misstatement of facts to make a singular political point. In any case, it's not cool and I depart from you in that.

Your call to Cosby-ites to establish an education fund is also a point of divergence (to a lesser or greater degree). Who are the Cosby-ites? Are they the Liberal Dems he's worked with for almost five decades? Are they the conservatives who've embraced his socially conservative outburst - and ignored his pattern of supporting Democratic candidates and making direct contributions to education at all levels? We must first identify the Cosby-ites - if for no other reason to mail the challenge to the correct addresses.

The challenge of establishing a Black Education Foundation that rivals voucher foundations is a great idea. I don't disagree with that - but I believe it is important that the lionshare of that money come from black folk. The source of money determines the eventual use of the dollars. The NAACP may be the single best example of this. The long-standing pursuit of integration and non-economic llberalism was driven by the white funders - and led to the founder walking away. As long as money can be understood as a proxy for INTEREST and COMMITMENT, Black Funds without black's funds are not viable. This is why I provided a broader context to the attraction, appeal and influence of Mr. Canada as a fundraiser. His efforts cannot be divorced from the current real estate scenario in Harlem. Your comedic call for me to let you know when I leave Harlem sounds like you work for the Corcoran Group and have a lovely upper west side family who love to relocate - in my place. I didn't provide the context to pidgeon-hole and undermine the example - I provided the context to demonstrate the type of inquiry that must attend a conversation about fundraising and development. You've said this is beside the point - we disagree.

You also raised the question of what "spending money" had to do with fundraising...it has everything to do with it...fundraisers get the ball rolling by investing their own dollars into the cause. It's always been that way and always will be - because money is a symbol of personal interest and commitment.

Also, to be fair, your initial reference to HCZ posits this organization as a singular example, but your second reference to the leadership of Canada suggests a direct relationship. Or a call for a direct contribution. After all, it is the example of his leadership that removes all excuses. You have since denied any such intention, but I certainly interpreted your first message as such.

Now, maybe with Steam, Smoke & Mirrors you can turn a high school dropout into a college applicant. But, suffice it to say, you're fresh out of tricks when you can't manage to read simple English.

As for the questions of where donations to education should be directed, I believe the following: Education research indicates that the NUMBER 1 indicator of student performance is TEACHER QUALITY. Teachers, as a class, already tend to have lower grades and subject-area knowledge than professionals in other fields. Moreover, due to long-standing alliances between powerful teacher's unions and elected officials in urban America, the best teachers rarely teach in the lowest performing schools. This political alliance has resulted in Democrats riding the wave of support from teachers unions to win election after election in cities with students who are not achieving on a level commensurate with their ability. The political solution requires either a counterweight to the Democrats or an ethical awakening in which teacher union ensure their best teachers are working in the most challenging environments. From an economic perspective, a few things are needed: 1) incentives to attract high-achieving college students to education (incentives usually take the form of scholarships and financial aid made possible through donations like that of the Cosby's) 2) resources to improve teacher quality through stronger Schools of Education, 3) professional development opportunities to improve pedagogyy, curriculum and content knowledge in close collaboration with higher education leaders, 4) development of institutional pipelines that direct and coordinate the work of new teachers with experienced teachers to ease transitions into schools.
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/
2004/julaug/farm/news/cosby.html

Given the importance of teacher quality and the enormous number of teachers who lack the requisite knowledge to teach world-class students, there is tremendous value in making donations to Schools of Education and scholarship funds at the university level. Many of the beneficiaries of such grants begin teaching children in the elementary and middle school level...the question of drop outs is really a middle school question vs. a high school question. The resolution of the high school dropout problem is one of improving the quality of teachers at the middle school level - something that can be done, in part, by providing targeted funding to universities and other institutions of higher education. As a corollary, I could go into grave detail about the level of funding and waste that goes on in urban school districts, but I don't believe that will serve this conversation.

As for the reading, writing and grammar references - you're really a stickler. You've got me. You've nailed my weakness. I think that is great. It's refreshing. I decided to look up the word "overature" that you used and here's what I came up. Psehrpa uyo oclud ralciyf ouyr enamgin.

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box to the right.

Suggestions for overature:

1. overreacher
2. overture
3. overmature
4. overreached
5. overreachers
6. overeater
7. overtured
8. overeager
9. overcharge
10. overassert
11. overtures

Maybe you just made a mistake. If you did, I would understand. I don't think I'd beat you over the head with it - unless you were wearing a doo-rag in Harlem, trying to walk into HCZ.

As a point of information, the data on educational performance may be found at www.ed.gov or nces.ed.gov. Earl Ofari Hutchinson references these statistics in his article blasting Cosby for his comments. By the way, I am not putting forth a defense of his comments...I am putting forth a broader context in which I am reading his comments - precisely because the sentiment is neither new nor unique.

You have a penchant for stating folks miss your point. You may be right.