Prometheus 6

No Linda Chavez, David Brooks, or other interlocutors in it..., I'd like to have some straight up ham-handed  discussion/consideration of the implications for us of ~12 Million undocumented mexicans working and living in the estados unidos.  As a genetic blaxican, cultural black partisan, I must confess an unusual degree of ambivalence about this issue.  I'm not comfortable.  I want the muhfukkin jury in on this one, in no uncertain terms, and it's still in chambers deliberating.  

With an eye to the axiom of "no permanent allies, only permanent interests" - where are other folks coming down on this issue?

That would be a long discussion. What type of repercussions concern you? Economic? Political? Cultural?

I've been intentionally absorbing all my inputs on this issue through black conservative filters.  Because I can, and, because the 2% are coming down hard against illegal aliens - with few if's and's or but's.  Personally I find the term "illegal alien" problematic. Which is why I pussyfoot with the alternative "undocumented mexican".

While I find the "bolster the border but don't criminalize the employer"  arguments prima facia self-serving, paradoxical, and ridiculous,  as much or even more than I find the catholic church's (Cardinal Mahoney's) radical stance on this issue to be self-serving - I have as yet to hear the the incisive, self-serving black partisan thesis on this issue.

The black partisan repurcussions concen me.  At this moment, I'm inclined to suspect that the black partisan repercussions are either consistent with black conservative objections, or, still very much up in the air.  I'm looking for feedback from folks who've thought it all through more deliberately than I have, or, who're interested in an extended jam session whose deliverable output will be to better frame the muhfukka than I'm able to do on my own - and which will take me further down the path to my own political stance on this issue. 

That Planet Hulk storyline is a killer isn't it?  If they even take it a LITTLE bit of the way it'd be mindblowing.  It's high time that folks at Marvel recognized exactly what Hulk is....a walking, talking, thinking, Katrina.  Everywhere he goes, people die.  A WHOLE BUNCH of people.

They should've sent him off world ages ago. 

But comic book writers are living in a damn fantasyland.  Which is a shame...because no other medium has the potential to do more to imagine what a new world would look like.

And if I had the link handy, I'd give a shout out to the work Craig, Joppa, and others are doing with Mayhem Academy.

They should've sent him off world ages ago.

They have...sucker keeps coming back. Dr. Strange sent him off-universe once. I always preferred the deep-space, cosmic and mystic stories. Plus I've found the Hulk ever more interesting since Bruce Banner was officially diagnosed as a multiple personality disorder case.

You check Marvel's Civil War storyline? Anyone with powers or costume must register; the superhero crew is split and those who don't register are felons. Iron Man sold out like a good Corporatist before the law even passed. It's like nuclear disarmament politics in spandex...the UN as Blue Man Group.

I've been reading for...more than twenty years.  i recall a storyline where hulk went off universe, but didn't know that strange sent him on purpose. 

i liked the peter david run with the introduction of mr. fixit.  i liked his run with the integrated banner/hulk.  i liked the bruce jones run that took the best of the tv series, and was the first to grapple with hulk as if he were Katrina. 

but what i like about this turn is that it is "realistic" (as realistic as one could expect given the nature of the hulk as a physics-violating character).  civil war (and the illuminati) is all a part of this move, and it has singlehandedly got me buying more marvel now than any other point in my comics buying history (the most i bought before was three or four--west coast avengers, xmen, x-force, and maybe one other).

now if someone could just make the decision to let these bastards AGE...we'd really be cooking with gas.

At this moment, I'm inclined to suspect that the black partisan repercussions are either consistent with black conservative objections, or, still very much up in the air.

The Black partisan view would look to see how this debate can be leveraged to improve Black folks' position. That will not come about by destroying the economy...though we might be able to get a few jobs chasing down 12,000,000 new felons.

My particular view: this, the Dubai port deal, the Middle East, the failed reponse to Katrina, all these situations have US international politics in a condition similar in many ways to the conditions around Brown v. Board of Ed times. The US is looking to shore up its race reputation internationally.

The USofA can't handle the diversity of the world if it can't even deal with the microcosm that is itself. Both Martin Luther King Jr. and El Hajj Malik El Shabazz spoke of putting international pressures on the internal struggle.

And if I had the link handy, I'd give a shout out to the work Craig, Joppa, and others are doing with Mayhem Academy.

It's Jappa's baby...., http://www.mayhemacademy.com

I just got the notion of wrapping that narrative around a CMS and using it as a cultural production incentive to get kids involved with using some open source tools: http://www.mayhemacademy.org

Audacity, GIMP, Blender, Dynebolic, and Mambo 

no other medium has the potential to do more to imagine what a new world would look like.

Sho's you right!!!

In my opinion, few other media genre's have greater potential for provoking science curiousity and exploration.  Like the way competition drives creativity in HipHop, our thought is to harness exactly that force to drive creativity in the classic storyboard mode and capability as the kids are compelled to stretch to learn to utilize the digital tools.

If there were any honesty on the illegal immigration problem, it would go very simply as follows;

1. The United States does not fairly and uniformly apply or enforce the immigration laws on its books. Africans and Caribbean blacks (Haitians, for example) are not allowed to come flooding into this country like a human tidal wave.

2. In 1965 when the Civil Rights Act was enacted, less than 1/5th the current mexican overflow lived in the U.S., and the majority of these were legal immigrants.  In the past 40 years, 80% of the current mexican flood has innundated the U.S. With 12 Million illegals in the past 20 years alone.

3. Mexicans, along with women, asians, and other non-white ethnics - have gobbled up the lion's share of hard won social justice concessions won by blacks for blacks from the U.S. government as token reparations for slavery, Jim Crow, and other legally enforced violations of black human rights enacted and maintained by whites for centuries - legally rescinded only as recently as 1968 with the Fair Housing Act.

Mexicans have been disproportionately given the benefit of political concessions not won by them or intended for them and have profitted tremendously from these unearned entitlements.

4. Mexicans are not friends or allies of black americans, and their political behaviour in the California enclaves where they've become the demographic majority makes this abundantly clear.  In every single instance where black folk naively look for coalition building, black elected leadership has been tossed out on its ear as the mexicans consolidate power.

5. The externalities involved with the unfunded burden on education, health care, and other social infrastructure imposed by the mexican flood is a grossly unfair imposition on American citizens, with disproportionate negative impact on the poorest or least well organized of Americans, and yes, that means the burden falls quite heavily on poor and working class black folks.

Time to wake up. 

Sounds like you had an opinion when you asked the question...as I suspected...

Your intuition is on a par with you imagination brah...,

I saw two polar extremes, open borders and serious criminalization, and a very squishy middle.  So, I posed the question to every black partisan adult I spoke with at the Learning Center y'day.  In so doing, I heard a plurality of opinions.  First was an analytical chemist from Overland Park who questioned the basic fairness of the thing.  I was surprised by the conservatism of her thinking on the subject, and as I deeply respect her opinion on many subjects, I added it to my list.  What I posted here was a digest of that list.

Far and away the MOST persuasive opinion I heard on the subject came from a civil engineer who immediately referred me to Claude Anderson/Powernomics and pointed out the extent to which mexicans have been nursed at the teat of black partisan political concessions won via our civil rights movement.  You'll note that that is also on my list, but I held off any direct reference to Claude Anderson until I have an opportunity to survey his writings for myself.

Only one brother with whom I work voiced a progressive opinion - which he followed up on with me thus;

Brother Craig, really ironic that I would receive an email from my cousin in SF Ca about the issue you raised today. Following is my response to my cousin, as well as the original statement he forwarded. My cousin is Rev. Charles Tinsley, noted as one of the signers.

"We had quite a lively discussion of this issue at the center this afternoon. It is my opinion that a proper understanding of the history of this country should lead us to challenge the sheer audacity of those who, having made their way into this country by any means necessary over the past 500 years, would see fit to judge the rights and merit of those who would seek similar advantage. Class, caste and racism are the unspoken factors at work in spreading fear, resentment and hatred of only those who are dissimilar."

> Opinion Editorial Desk
> Contra Costa Times
> Saturday, April 1, 2006
> As clergy and religious leaders, we write in support of comprehensive
> and just immigration reform. Our conscience and common humanity lead
> us to recognize the stranger among us. Defining undocumented workers
> as felons will divide families and force some people to go further
> underground as they attempt to provide for their families. Defining
> faith communities and individuals who help unauthorized immigrants as felons will make felons of us all.
> There is hypocrisy evident within the enforcement-only legislation
> currently passed by the House of Representatives. We are all
> immigrants. It is clear that such legislation attempts to protect the
> privilege of earlier immigrant groups at the expense of recent
> immigrants. Our faiths compels us to act on behalf of the exploited
> and marginalized of the world, many of whom are willing to risk the
> trek to America in order to ensure that their families survive harsh
> political and economic conditions. Sadly, indentured servitude and slave-labor conditions for undocumented immigrants are increasing in the United States.
> We agree that America needs to provide secure borders, but it can do
> so without criminalizing the poor. If we wish to decrease the number
> of unauthorized immigrants in our country, we should begin by
> reconsidering American involvement in free-trade agreements, while
> simultaneously investing justly in the economies of Central and South
> America. We do well to call for living wages in both our country and
> in the poorest parts of the world. We can only provide security for ourselves as we care for our neighbors.
> To this end, we oppose legislation that makes undocumented status a
> felony or separates members of families from one another. We support
> legislation that opens a meaningful pathway to citizenship for those
> already in the United States. We support legislation that protects all
> workers, helps local communities, and restores the rule of law, while
> enhancing national security. We support the restoration of funding to
> reduce the huge backlog in family-based immigration cases currently in
> the courts. Such laws will liberate undocumented immigrants from the
> shadows, helping them come forward and integrate themselves into our
> communities, while creating an incentive for future immigrants to come to the United States within the legal structures for doing so.
> As people of faith, we will choose to live out the principles of
> compassion and care for all of our neighbors, even in the face of
> unjust laws. We encourage all people to join us in the task of
> justice, equity, and respect for those who seek the refuge of these shores.
> Sincerely,
>
> (Affiliation is for identification purposes only) Rev. Will McGarvey,
> Pastor, Community Presbyterian Church, Pittsburg Rev. Mauricio Chacón,
> Pastor, Iglesia Presbiteriana de la Misión, San Francisco Rabbi
> Raphael W. Asher, B'nai Tikvah Walnut Creek Dr. Amer Araim, Imam,
> Dar-Ul-Islam Mosque, Concord Rev. Roger Reaber, Pastor, Grace
> Presbyterian Church, Walnut Creek Rev. Jack Shriver, Retired, Walnut
> Creek Rev. Won Kim, Castro Valley Rev. Brian Stein-Webber, Director,
> Interfaith Council of Contra Costa County Dr. Harmesh Kumar, Concord,
> Interfaith Council of Contra Costa County Rev. Pablo Morataya, Pastor,
> Iglesia Presbiteriana Hispania, Oakland Rev. Sally Juarez, High Street
> Presbyterian Church, Oakland Rev. Norman Fong, Justice Advocacy and
> Caring Committee, San Francisco Presbytery Rev. Dr. James A. Noel,
> Interim Pastor, Sojourner Truth Presbyterian Church, Richmond Arthur
> Hatchett, Executive Director, Greater Richmond Interfaith Program Rev.
> Max Lynn, Pastor, St. John’s Presbyterian Church, Berkeley Dr. Joyce
> Ann Mercer, Associate Professor of Practical Theology and Christian
> Education, San Francisco Theological Seminary Rev. Dr. Charles D.
> Tinsley, Juvenile Detention Chaplain, Contra Costa County Rev. Charles
> Marks, Chaplain, San Francisco Theological Seminary

When the current LA mayor ran last time around, I talked to my aunt about it.  My aunt lives in LA, and has lived there since Watts perhaps.  Her son was one of the first victims of the modern day Crips-Blood warfare. 

"They trying to take over," my aunt said.

I looked at her incredulously.  Her daughter (my cousin) voted for Prop 187 years ago, noting their high birthrate (among other bad cultural traits).
........

There is obviously a zero-sum politics game being played.  For every representative voted in of one ethnicity in a given district, another one canNOT be voted in.

But Mexicans and African Americans have much more in common than who they elect.  Craig's sole practical MEASUREMENT of black political power is the number of political officials.   Now these political officials DO work for contracts and patronage--the types of things that we all could benefit from directly because of our professional expertise.

Let's not assume though that there is a natural hostility between black and mexican interests at the working class level.  Because there is NOT.  They want the same good schools...and neither have them.  They want the same access to quality health care...neither have them.  They want the same quality policing...and neither have them. 

Note also that the anti-immigration policy also does a job on Africans and on Caribbean immigrants.  Just like 187 prepared the way for 209....

Craig's sole practical MEASUREMENT of black political power is the number of political officials.

You may be a little hasty in your assessment of "sole practical" here Spence.  If we measure the externalities involved with accomodating Mexicans, then there is a significant economic criterion (measured in hundreds of billions of dollars) around which measurable political gravity must be considered as well.

At this juncture, I'm coming down VERY HARD on the side of not only no, but HELL NO to amnesty or any other type of concessions to illegal immigration and the mexican population explosion in the United States.  That 80% of the Mexican population in the states since 1964 figure quoted to me y'day at the learning center tipped the scales in my thinking.

Please tell me what I ought to know about the pros and cons of Powernomics as proposed in Detroit.  Evidently, Latinos didn't like it from the word go.

Your intuition is on a par with you imagination brah...,

True...

If we measure the externalities involved with accomodating Mexicans, then there is a significant economic criterion (measured in hundreds of billions of dollars) around which measurable political gravity must be considered as well.

I don't mind those costs becoming explicit.

I think for a white american to be isolationist and nativist, given the direction of the world, is quite foolish.

I think that for a black american to adopt the same isolationist and pseudo-nativist sentiment is suicidal.

"Our jobs", "our civil rights movement" from a black man seem as absurd to me as "our jobs", "our country" does coming from white folk. America is becoming the ultimate (political, economic) open source community; and to the dismay of the white middle class, so is the world. Many whites have an irresistable sense of entitlement, which makes them blind to shifting paradigms; "awake" blacks should know better.

For a black partisan to buy into the "mainstream" version of immigration reform is stupid. Like they're doing that for our sake. True, the latinos are not marching for our sake, either.

When choosing sides, we have to look at real motivations and likely results, not platitudes about fairness and legality. Then ask ourselves what side to support. And clearly, a move which de-leverages the current class/racial strata and current power structure is the choice blacks should make. Hands down.

Yet, I see blacks calling for these punitive measures and "reforms", like those french kids over there marching and picketing for the staus quo. It irks me.

I'm Baaacckkk!
So. The notion of Illegal immigration being 'legitimized' reeks of bladant double standard, and, seeming social poison, of sorts, for African Americans, especially the males.
First, I often judge these specific immigrations based on the treatment of Blacks in mexico, and its not a pretty picture, ala 'pepe memin'. And a devastating editorial in the NYT some years ago detailing how American companies had to prepare Black workers for the disgusting racist acts by mexicans, they were sure to endure, on business trips to Mexico City.
Second, i8 have often followed extremet interest on the xtent of rasim exhibited by the likes of folks like Linda Chavez, who in one breth has has such antiBlack positions, for the most part, in regards to Affirmative Action or any other program or matter that has a seeming positive effect for Black. While on the other hand, writing in her book of recent, as reviewed in the WASH POST, speaking of her obvious benefit from Affirmative Action during her political /professional career, and her views that, seemingly, legitimize these illegal immigrants.
I'm 100% on point with CNulan here as he points out the Detroit fiasco, where local mexicans have, and have had the support of "city resources" to facilitate the start and operation of "Little Mexico" in Detroit, but they are fighting 'tooth and nail' to ensure Blacks aren't afforded their own "Little Africa" there.
So for me the problem of illegal immigration is simple.
"IF CAUGHT send them BACK VIA THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION AS WRITTEN AND NO TO AMMESTY!
Foruth there will always be racial and class strata and I okay with that if I'min the upper echelons of whatever group. In biological systems there are ALWAYS distinctions among groups. To suggest that are not different is a waste of intellectual energy and immagination for viabiliy of our people collectively. That is people look out for their group hopefully without trying to carry the burden of saving the "whole of mankind" as is often the juxta-positions American Blacks are often manuevered into.

There is a lot more wrong with powernomics than I have time to discuss.

But not only am I not surprised that Mexicans rallied against the Powernomics plan, I would've done the same thing.  It is nativist, and racist.  On top of that impractical, and Reaganesque (trickle down economics doesn't work for whites, why would it work for blacks?).  Because of the way Detroiters elect City Councilpersons, the Mexican American community has almost NO HOPE of electing someone to represent their interests....yet at the same time they contribute a great deal to Detroit's economic, social, and cultural well-being.

The externalities involved with accomodating immigrants is significant.

So are the externalities involved with dealing with poverty.

The more voters with sense, the better.

To the degree that Mexicans want everything I mentioned above, when they become voting citizens, they become a constituency that can be mobilized for pretty much the exact same material desires as black people are SOMETIMES mobilized for.  The only places there would be competition are in electoral positions, and probably in job contracts.

Which ARE significant...but only to a very small class of African Americans.

G.

I'm 100% on point with CNulan here as he points out the Detroit fiasco, where local mexicans have, and have had the support of "city resources" to facilitate the start and operation of "Little Mexico" in Detroit, but they are fighting 'tooth and nail' to ensure Blacks aren't afforded their own "Little Africa" there.

Here's where that particular Detroit move becomes idiotic.

Mexican Town was created through a process of segregation, and the natural desire of immigrants to be with their own.  Over the natural course of time they purchased local shops in their own neighborhood, added their own flavor to it....to the point where they could use "MexicanTown" like a marketing slogan.  Going against them rather than against the wealthy Greek tycoons of Greektown (for example), is like Robert Townsend going after the midget in his first movie (I forget the name).

Detroiters are already deeply segregated.  What they don't have in most neighborhoods are the zoning codes that would allow more than liquor stores.  Create the zoning codes above board...organize African centered businesses there as a matter of course.  THEY DON'T NEED "LITTLE AFRICA" BECAUSE THEY ALREADY RUN THE CITY! 

Just DO it, then call it whatever the hell you want to.

This is the type of kneejerk reactionary thinking that hamstrings coalition building efforts on both sides.  Both in cities like Detroit (you think black people really need not one, not two, but THREE casinos?) and abroad.

You can ratiioonalized Mexican town antway you want to the fact is they required city money and services to get started and endure to this point. And if I'm not mistaken Negroes still pay taxes there, and in effect, subsidized "Little Mexican town." And I have written about "Greektown" and "Arab town" both of whom are in Michicgan. The latter, of which, was constructed with the help of "city money" also. And a check of city financial records will note that GreekTown was more likely, than not, afforded "tax incentives." Meaning= subsidized by the city and tax paying Blacks and others. Yet the Mexicans are not protesting against either of the existing entities. And by the way, I have no problem the the city or state pouring tax dollars to support local businesses. But I know. They can support everyone else; but not the the Negroes! Yep. If Negroes actually benefit from their hard earned tax dollars, obviously something must be seriously wrong!!!!
They are only complaining about "The Blacks or Chochos."
As to Detroit being run by Blacks, this really does not ring of substance or substantive response to me, considering the crass nature political class that now afflicts our national and local political eoonomy, to a large extent.
Hwah percent of the downtown and local commercial develpoment and stores are run or own by local Negroes?
So, since the figure is obvoius anemically scandalous, when Black do decide to form an economic incubator for self development, small as it is, other blacks, among others have a problem with it. As we say where I'm from "GETTHEFUCOUTTAHERE!!!!!!!! (NOTE: Not PERSONAL LS, just a figure of speech)

of course the mexicans don't protest against greektown.  like i said, the barriers to coalition building go both ways.  just like blacks in la are real quick to talk about how the mexicans are taking over (taking over from WHO?  we don't OWN anything!!!!)....mexicans in detroit are quick to swing at black representatives who want to do their own thing.  even though--and let's be clear here, the black representatives themselves are quick to go after the mexicans rather than greektown.  mexican town is driven by the taxes that local folks (mostly mexican american, but black american too) pay.  Greektown?  a totally different ballgame kid.

Many whites have an irresistable sense of entitlement, which makes them blind to shifting paradigms; "awake" blacks should know better.

An awake black man predicates his understanding of current events on the certain knowledge of declining net energy availability and the consequences that will ensue therefrom.  Call it a "lifeboat" model of societal sustainability.  Given the understanding of what's thermodynamically real and what's pending, that open source nonsense is a vacuous, hand-waving and ill-informed bit or moralizing tripe.  It's the kind of irresponsible nonsense you'd expect to hear from a not particularly astute humanist.  It has no place in the calculus of a hardnosed, purposeful, and responsible black partisan plan or strategy.  

An awake black man predicates his understanding of current events on the certain knowledge of declining net energy availability and the consequences that will ensue therefrom. 

Plain english, please. My PhD is in engineering, not wordsmithery.

Given the understanding of what's thermodynamically real and what's pending, that open source nonsense is a vacuous, hand-waving and ill-informed bit or moralizing tripe. 

Tell me how you really feel. What problem do you have with it, since you don't even know the details of what I'm talking about? And I don't think you understand what's 'thermodynamically real" (whatever the hell that means) anymore than any other concerned person.

It has no place in the calculus of a hardnosed, purposeful, and responsible black partisan plan or strategy. 

Who made you head strategist?

It is a matter of fact that billions will die during my lifetime...,

and not because of what this nincompoop blackmore speculates about, i.e., global climate change, rather, due to the unsustainable human population overshoot that will be corrected via plague, war, and martially enforced scarcity.  the die have already been cast - as far as I can ascertain.

So, when faced with the inevitable, it would behoove black partisan leadership to discountinue the kumbaya bullshit and to commence with the lifeboat captain calculus in order to properly plan for the greatest good for the greatest number.  This means careful consideration of one's local posture vis-a-vis the clampdown headed our way.  The picture for us is not entirely rosy, nor however, is it entirely bleak.  Like the UK argument broached by blackmore, there is enough non-exhausted arable land in the US to support somewhere between 200-300 million Americans under a militarily regimented reorganization of resource consumption, labor, and use.

Figuring out which way the wind will blow is a priority, imoho.....,

Gentlemen, please make sure the furniture remains intact.

cnulan, thank you for not grabbing that chair.

So, in the context of issue at hand, what blacks should do is build coalitions with groups with the future in mind, not isolate themselves or cater to nativist chatter.

I may not agree on the details, but I also believe that the status quo is unsustainable. Substitute "corporate" for "martial". For american blacks, the solution is not to turn inwards, but to make the right coalitions and build sustainable wealth/power in the right places. No matter where the wind blows in the future, isolationism (ie, 'f**k kumbayaa') will not serve well in an interconnected world where capital and information is both dynamic and mobile.

Do you really think in your nightmare future, american blacks will be an island or a fortress unto themselves?

P6,

You know I'll observe all required barbershop/backporch protocols in your house.  Poor Keto is evidently too busy blowing hard, to have any idea which way the wind is blowing. 

For american blacks, the solution is not to turn inwards, but to make the right coalitions and build sustainable wealth/power in the right places.

What do American blacks produce? 

What are the politics of the dominant American producers?

Wealth/power - means what besides energy?

There are no permanent alliances or coalitions, simply permanent interests..., in this case, my opinion is that our long-range interests are not served by coalition building with an unassimilated population that competes with us - as well as working poor whites - at every possible turn.  It's a simple faustian choice of the devil I know over the devil I know less well.

There are no nightmares in my future.  Simply contingencies which must be systematically planned for and adapted to.

To your last point, thankyou, Mr. CNulan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think for a white american to be isolationist and nativist, given the direction of the world, is quite foolish.  I think that for a black american to adopt the same isolationist and pseudo-nativist sentiment is suicidal.

Had to go get dinner, ate some tasty Mexican..., anyway I felt compelled to return to the unintended irony of the above pronouncement.  "given the direction of the world"   heh, heh, heh, heh..., pure comedy gold.

While American intellectuals continue to portray globalization as a new permanent fixture of the world, writes James Howard Kunstler, the global trade fair is nearing its end. Kunstler opines that the "cheerleaders of globalization" fail to recognize that today's global economic relations are based on relative world peace and reliable supplies of cheap energy. He points to historical instances of trade relations dependent on such transient circumstances: The first phase of globalization, which began in the 1870s, collapsed in 1914 as the coal economy transitioned into an oil economy. Kunstler warns that the West's – particularly the United States' – extreme dependence on oil has produced economic distortions that may be impossible to overcome. With a military contest for control of the world's remaining oil already underway, Kunstler speculates, "the sunset of the current phase of globalization seems dreadfully close to the horizon." – YaleGlobal

Globalization Is an Anomaly and Its Time is Running Out

Today's transient global economic relations are a product of very special transient circumstances, namely relative world peace and absolutely reliable supplies of cheap energy. Subtract either of these elements from the equation and you will see globalization evaporate so quickly it will suck the air out of your lungs. It is significant that none of the cheerleaders for globalization takes this equation into account. In fact, the American power elite is sleepwalking into a crisis so severe that the blowback may put both major political parties out of business.

cnulan, GDAWG:

my opinion is that our long-range interests are not served by coalition building with an unassimilated population that competes with us - as well as working poor whites - at every possible turn.

Can you see instances where our interests might coincide? Instances where you can leverage their reactions? Instances where you might have to understand or tolerate them?

It is significant that none of the cheerleaders for globalization takes this equation into account.

I believe that is because corporate persons will get priority treatment in order to restructure. THEY will not run out of energy...YOU will. If the mainstream behaves itself long enough there can be a successful soft landing, and a social transformation of the same scale as the Great Society. And they will behave

That's why I don't have personal survival anxiety.

For american blacks, the solution is not to turn inwards, but to make the right coalitions and build sustainable wealth/power in the right places.

What do American blacks produce? 

I'm sure, from a manufacturing/raw goods pov, nothing significant. What do americans in general produce? Less and less. However, you don't have to directly produce something to have wealth. You just have to own the right things.

What are the politics of the dominant American producers?

To the dominant american producers, IMO politics is a game to be used to gain and maintain wealth. Corporations back politics that inflates the bottom line.

Wealth/power - means what besides energy (what a cute article-keto) ?

True wealth and power have only loose connections to energy reserves. I mean, a big takeaway from your referenced article is just that: eg., energy prices (and by extension, the pro forma value of energy companies, and by extension the wealth of the owners of those companies) have no correlation to the absolute amount of energy left. (actually, the reason this is, is because you could say that for most consumers, the supply on the supply/demand curve for oil approximates infinity; that is, they believe the reserves will outlast their lifetime)

If you get down to it, wealth and power is about perception, not facts. (BTW, one salient flaw in the referenced article is it's focus on mainstream sources of energy, oil and nuclear (which is because of the power of those industries to narrow the writer's perceptions of what renewable energy is available). Energy is quite abundant on this planet, and there are quite a lot of research projects to find ways to efficiently mine it.)

But getting back to the here-and-now, within the confines of society and our collective perception of wealth, black americans should prudently build wealth through ownership of securities and businesses.

There are no permanent alliances or coalitions, simply permanent interests..., in this case, my opinion is that our long-range interests are not served by coalition building with an unassimilated population that competes with us - as well as working poor whites - at every possible turn.  It's a simple faustian choice of the devil I know over the devil I know less well.

I never said there were any permanent alliances. And I disagree that interests are static, if that’s what you meant by permanent.

Your solution seems to me like black isolationism. Have you never heard that you should keep your enemies close? Guess what, black americans are competing against everyone now, whether it's an immigrant from mexico that just moved next door, or the malaysian half a world away handcuffed to her workstation.

Of course it's a faustian choice. When have we in this stange land ever been faced with anything less? My point is about what this particular choice should be (the less known one), not the fact that it’s a crappy choice.

There are no nightmares in my future.  Simply contingencies which must be systematically planned for and adapted to.

Yeah, well maybe I'm a bit younger than you, but I see some a rocky road ahead, and some definite nightmare scenarios. I don't see how you can systematically plan when the game is changing so fast and unpredictably, but good luck.

While American intellectuals continue to portray globalization as a new permanent fixture of the world, writes James Howard Kunstler, the global trade fair is nearing its end. Kunstler opines that the "cheerleaders of globalization" fail to recognize that today's global economic relations are based on relative world peace and reliable supplies of cheap energy.

1)Who says there is relative world peace? The world is beset with violent wars and conflicts.

2)You can believe globalization is inevitable and not be a cheerleader of it

3)You are confusing my vision of globalism with that of Newsweek's.

He points to historical instances of trade relations dependent on such transient circumstances: The first phase of globalization, which began in the 1870s, collapsed in 1914 as the coal economy transitioned into an oil economy. Kunstler warns that the West's – particularly the United States' – extreme dependence on oil has produced economic distortions that may be impossible to overcome. With a military contest for control of the world's remaining oil already underway, Kunstler speculates, "the sunset of the current phase of globalization seems dreadfully close to the horizon." – YaleGlobal

Again, the globalism this article is based on does not reflect my beliefs of the direction of the world. My vision of the future is not US-centric, or anglo-centric. It is one of an interconnected world with plenty of economic and political assymetries. The US is probably headed for 3rd world status on its present course.

BTW, just discovered this...I didn't know she passed on...

http://www.octaviabutler.com/

Can you see instances where our interests might coincide? Instances where you can leverage their reactions? Instances where you might have to understand or tolerate them?

Yes, my interest coincided very nicely at dinner this evening.  As for the bigger political picture, I believe our interests, language, and culture coincide (nay dovetail) with that of working poor whites. I am carefully studying their reactions and believe that by acting out this past week, Mexicans have injudiciously whipsawed themselves and their corpmilgov sponsors into a popular political backlash.

This is Dubai Ports World 2.0.  The more of this paradox I see, the more delighted I become with just how interesting our political climate has become.  You know that with the collective seniority of some members of the CBC, a big reversal of republican congressional gains this year could make for some exceedingly interesting power shifts in the Congress.  Can you imagine Conyers as the head of the house judiciary committee?  I relish the thought of what may be possible. 

If the mainstream behaves itself long enough there can be a successful soft landing, and a social transformation of the same scale as the Great Society. And they will behave  

HUGE phukkin IF there brah..., Americans are singularly ornery and well-armed.  I don't know how many more of these corpmilgov vs. populist whipsaws the societal status quo will tolerate. 

Embedded as I am in an intentional community, I have no qualms about my personal safety - no matter which way the wind blows, soft, hard, or otherwise. 

Excellente CN!

Energy is quite abundant on this planet, and there are quite a lot of research projects to find ways to efficiently mine it.

No Keto.  Not tar sands, not shale, nor clathrates will render up their bounty to Caesar before it's too late.  EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) is the rub in each of these cases.  There will be no deus ex machina from science, either.  No desktop fusion, no zero point energy, no conquest of Lawson's criteria.....,overshoot is real and dieoff is the cure

This is not a matter of perceptions, it's simple thermodynamics....,

my opinion is that our long-range interests are not served by coalition building with an unassimilated population that competes with us - as well as working poor whites - at every possible turn.

Can you see instances where our interests might coincide? Instances where you can leverage their reactions? Instances where you might have to understand or tolerate them?

As for the bigger political picture, I believe our interests, language, and culture coincide (nay dovetail) with that of working poor whites.

Oooooh...is that pain in my head ice cream brain freeze...or cognitive dissonance caused by the conflict between your two statements?

^{I have no ice cream...}

If the mainstream behaves itself long enough there can be a successful soft landing, and a social transformation of the same scale as the Great Society. And they will behave  

HUGE phukkin IF there brah...,

Not really...and as evidence I present five words that echoi even now in the halls of power:

"I believe in George Bush."

White folks are most singularly manipulable...especially by other white folks. They just need the illusion ...not even the reality...of status. As long as you don't take their guns they have the illusion of power, and will even patrol for you, keep the order they remember.

I don't know how many more of these corpmilgov vs. populist whipsaws the societal status quo will tolerate. 

None, hopefully. Who wants the societal status quo?

Just talked to one of my colleagues about this, a francophone African.

He dropped something I hadn't really considered before.

Every ethnic group in the country has a program of "family unification" but one.  "Family unification" occurs when Kennedy says "I want my uncle from Ireland to come live with us."   Such a program not only unifies families, but grows the ethnic group.  And in as much as the new immigrants come with skills, it strengthens the ethnic group as well.

Guess which group has no such program?  Of course we know why--most of us don't know where our ancestors came from exactly, so we can't make such arguments.

So we end up falling behind other ethnic groups--Cubans to the southeast, Mexicans to the southwest, Armenians to the west. 

G' brings up Little Africa in Detroit.  In as much as an anti-immigrant policy would kill the already small African migration, it sounds really strange for him to talk on the one hand about building "Little Africa" in Detroit, while at the same time keeping Africans themselves from coming to Detroit to work in the first place. 

Think about how a city like Detroit--built for 2 million, currently holding some 850,000--could benefit from a serious influx of African and Caribbean immigrants.  Even assuming that the first generation will themselves be anti-black American, that second generation will be for all intents and purposes black American.  With skills. 

Or should we think of these individuals as competitors too?

Considering the fact the native Black Americans are aborting themselves out of existence, I actually would love for more African and Caribbean immigrants to migrate to Detroit to help replenish us. I'm bias because I'm married to a Caribbean (Black) sister, but hey. And I don't consider them competItors in a real sense because the system will remind them of this fact, especially the second generation and later. Finally I feel the fact that we can't allow for others of our kit and kin to migrate here due to the circumstances of our coming here speaks to the moral privation of enslavers and their descendants. LS the policy is ANTI-ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, NOT ANTI-LEGAL IMMIGRATION! DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or should we think of these individuals as competitors too?

unless they're standing shoulder to shoulder with you putting in Work in a black partisan intentional community, without a doubt....,

I'm frankly astonished at the level of impractical naivete emanating from the kumbaya quarters..., I remember the first time I encountered some *brothaz* from the Caribbean who had the audacity to look down on and directly disrespect me at the Institute. 

I'll never forget the shock and awe spelled out on the faces of rich, arrogant, disdainful muhfukkas in the wake of a swift and ruthless country beatdown.  Makes me chuckle to this very day.

Finally I feel the fact that we can't allow for others of our kit and kin to migrate here

SNIP!!!!!!!

Shiiiiiit......, we don't take care of our own children, elders and extended family members right here at home!!!!  I got a two word proof for you KATRINA REFUGEES. Personally I got less patience for the pan-African pipe dream than I have for Mexican coalition building.  Constructive interpersonal communion right here at home within the black american community beginning in the one nearest you is priority number one for generations to come. 

Everything else is just self-calming ideological conversation

James 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

i disagree for two reasons:

1.  with the exception of the east coast--north of philly in particular--whatever intra-ethnic beefs caribbeans got going on lasts one generation, two tops.  the kids end up being black.

2.  the immigrants come here WITH SKILLS.  the types of skills that could be used to rebuild crumbling cities.

g' check out the fine print.  you can't pick  and choose.

Cn, On the matter of "legal Black immigration" I think that adding this new blood and skills, as LS points out, in my opinion can only help our community. These folks are ultimately reminded of who and what they are in short order once arriving here.

I also understand that the US does "Cherry Picking" of sorts, to determine what Black/colored getsto come here, as is the case of the matter in Brazil, some years ago, whereby, as it was reported, US state department diplomates were giving out visas to the 'lighter skinned' Brazilians, disporportionately, it was alleged, according to published reports at the time. I assume this happens in other nation with significant Black populations. Just nature of the US to do so.

As to you LS, exactly what fine print are you referring to?

Cn, On the matter of "legal Black immigration" I think that adding this new blood and skills, as LS points out, in my opinion can only help our community. These folks are ultimately reminded of who and what they are in short order once arriving here.

THAT is an interesting statement.

It implies to me

• Black folks are basically the same people worldwide
• 'reminded' suggests Non-American Black folk forgot they are the same people as us.
• Being on the receiving side of racism awakens their inner Black American

Oooooh...is that pain in my head ice cream brain freeze...or cognitive dissonance caused by the conflict between your two statements?

I didn't forget about you brah..., and I'm not sure I understand your point here.  In one interpretation, I think perhaps you've underestimated the ruthless pragmatism of my statements.   So to clarify, I'll add the following.  In Kansas and Missouri I've been immersed in gun celebrating working poor white (WPW) culture for my entire life.  Some of my closest friends and business partners come from exactly this background.  We have made ourselves indispensible to one another, and in the process obviated any and all barriers to mutual and reciprocal understanding.  By and large, I gel well with tough, obsessive compulsive, left-handed hacker thugs.   This was also the case in my hometown Wichita where I had similar relationships both social and business with folks in aircraft manufacturing.

Even though I speak spanish, I have no comparable friends and business associates in the chicano community.  KC's west side and KCK operate as largely closed communities in many regards. I see exactly that in the construction trades, (cause there's a HUGE amount of high-dollar construction going on in KC right now) it's working poor blacks and whites who're taking it on the chin because of the influx of cheap mexican labor - carpenters, roofers, and others who'll work for a fraction of what a journeyman black or white construction worker would have to be paid under union guidelines.

"I believe in George Bush."

Not so much anymore...., which is why I call this immigration issue Dubai Ports World 2.0.  Many of the WPW have seen how they're being played as patsy's.  They're damn near fed up and not going to take it anymore.  Remember my JBS school background.  One of my best friends to this day from those days was a WPW cat who knows good and damn well that he was looked down upon by the rich folk out there as an outlier for life.  Now that he's making money, he's not going to suddenly lose his mind.  Matter of fact, his fine brown wife would hardly allow that to happen. 

So..., when I look at this issue, I look at it in very local, very personal, and very practical terms.  Far from being a black partisan isolationist, my partisanship - as you're well aware - is centered on a religion of knowledge, skill and ability.  I don't need to import skilled folk from africa or the carribean, though any who're here, and who join the work are welcome.  Matter of fact, we have the center has  correspondence crews in Liberia and South Africa, three African volunteer instructors, and so we have folks Working shoulder to shoulder.  But understand, they came to us.

Frankly, the foreign service aspect of the Center's operations are neither my bailiwick nor area of interest within the organization.  I'm all about building up my own and making that cadre peerless.  With that in mind and that Work underway, I know exactly the model for making and keeping peace with WPW  and producing something which compels them to come to me and mine for needed capabilities and deliverables. 

THAT in my opinion is how the societal status quo will be durably altered.  It is exactly what has happened in the area of cultural production, and, it is exactly what can be made to happen in technology production, basic services, and agriculture.  I don't see any value whatsoever, knowing what I know about declining net energy - in inviting any more chauvinistic and mostly unassimilable competitors to the table - when the road up ahead is visibly rough and bumpy. 

We can't win the strength in numbers game, we can, however, win the strength in excellence game.

look at the penalties associated with hiring illegal immigrants, with even going so far as to "help" illegal immigrants.

now how do we know WHO is an illegal immigrant and who is not?

there is only one explicitly way--check for some type of official documentation. 

there is a quicker way though--look at the skin color.  this means can also be used as a sorting process to determine who gets asked for official documentation.

given the penalties associated with even something as innocuous as giving an illegal immigrant a ride to work, much more care is going to be used to determine who is down and who is not.  the resulting process is nothing less than a modern FUGITIVE SLAVE ACT that will not only severely penalize Latinos for nothing more than being brown, and will also have adverse impacts on African and Caribbean immigrants anywhere they congregate in large numbers. 

Like I said, you can't pick and choose. 

given the penalties associated with even something as innocuous as giving an illegal immigrant a ride to work, much more care is going to be used to determine who is down and who is not.  the resulting process is nothing less than a modern FUGITIVE SLAVE ACT that will not only severely penalize Latinos for nothing more than being brown, and will also have adverse impacts on African and Caribbean immigrants anywhere they congregate in large numbers. 

Like I said, you can't pick and choose.

You've chosen to ignore "accent" as a defining characteristic.   You've also chosen to predicate your black Dietrich Bonhoffer idealism on what appears to me an unrealistic and cornucopian notion that there'll continue to be growth and more than enough to go around. 

I predicate my view on the harsher infrastructural limitations and realities of the lifeboat model.  Sorry, carrying capacity is finite, and I can't be concerned with giving a phuk about folks who've established such a weak track record of coalition building and Working shoulder to shoulder with me when it was discretionary on their part.  Now that the threat of it being necessary and/or mandatory becomes evident, it's supposed to be kumbaya time?
Hell's no!!!

Correct me if I'm mistaken Spence, but does your perspective on this matter take into consideration the  destabilizing effects of  Peak Oil and its repercussions ?  Or has this remained merely a novel conceptual variable in your political calculus?

Spence perhaps I'm mssing something but I did not know that there was a significant problem with illegal African and Caribbean immigration. I mean, everything I've read has pointed out the matter to be most prominently Mexican and other south American locales. And CN, I'm feeling your vibes as to your local situation and  your background but legal migration by Afr/Car, though small as it has become, according to the NYT yesterday, seems to be virtually socially  innoccous in terms of competition with native blacks compared to the competition derived from illegal immigrant, and the drain on resources that could be better directed to our folks but instead is spent on these folks, the illegals. But, on ther hand, spent on legals, a whole different matter. Overall though, you make the case excellently for gaining control of the troubling socio-economic / political matter.

Oh yes P, your deduction of my statement that blacks being the same folks basically globally, is the reality of the matter, from a genetic point of view. We have alot of intermixture, but its not enough to diffuse our geographic distinctness that is marked genetically. At least not yet.

And yes, in my experience, some newly arrived  Afr/Car immigrants can display a type of 'otherness' from us all, as in my boy in Boston, OP.

But, as I noted earlier, there is a type of "cherry picking" that occurs when American  visas are handed out overseas, therefore this darwinian effect tends to narrow down the diversity of visa recipients, good or bad. So it is not uncommon to have some of these folks to come here with certain 'attitutes' towards us. Over time, notwithstanding OP in Boston, most overcome this sense of arrogance or otherness from us.

As to your last point, this is what I find so incredulous in many of these folks that are so afflicted with the otherness phenon, that in many of their native lands there exist local forms of racism that is endemic. Therefore, local version of racism feeds into the cherry picking of the US in allowing folks to come here.

You know, EROEI, as you put it, can be overcome. You know, oil was in the same place not so long ago. But people figured it out. I guess when it comes to engineering, I'm an optimist.

Engineering is using an understanding of 'simple thermodynamics' to problems such as our energy crisis. What makes refrigerators, air conditioners and other counter-intuitive thermodynamic systems possible is that thermodynamics is really not so simple. Get down deep enough and you can innovate.

We just have to put our minds to it.

Aside from thermdynamics, I still think that wealth is purely perception. As we will discover when the chinese and japanese perceive the Euro is a better base currency than the greenback.  (In matters economic, I'm a pessimist.)

cnulan, the problem with the "net energy" scenario is you're expecting a global collapse in the availability of energy. Much like global warming that average value represents areas of increased and decreased consumption.

And it's not like you're expecting us all going back to subsistence farming. Your talk of trade means you know you're not going to be independant of the mainstream, regardless of rhetoric.

GDAWG, I found your statement that they would discover who and what they really are as a result of experiencing American racism troubling. The only way I can explain why is to ask you a rhetorical question: Who and what are you when the oppression ends? Like, pick a day when you have no appointments, just got paid, totally free day. Check a free public performance of your favorite style of music, have a good meal from a cuisine you like but don't get to very often. Get to your favorite, most comfortable place and ask yourself, who and what am I?

G', how do you know the difference between the "legals" and the "illegals?"  Is it the way they walk?  The way they talk?  What type of state/federal/local resources are going to be required to actually send "illegals" back to where they came from?  How exactly are you going to be able to know when someone is being railroaded because they offended someone, or because they didn't give up the ass? 

Craig, I'm familiar with the energy argument.  The best "solution" to the energy crisis is work right?   I consider that a form of organized human capital.  While there is an efficiency curve to consider--at some point there are diminishing returns to adding more folk--I believe that cities like Detroit need more of these immigrants (more accurately THE CHILDREN of these immigrants) because of the skills they bring to the table.

And it's not like you're expecting us all going back to subsistence farming. Your talk of trade means you know you're not going to be independant of the mainstream, regardless of rhetoric.

What I am expecting is an economic situation of greater severity and duration than the great depression.  You are aware that during the Great Depression, 400,000 Mexicans were deported, many of whom were citizens.  "No Mexican working while a white man doesn't" was one of the slogans. 

Now, the great depression saw 1 in 4 men unemployed  - and  privations that shaped behaviours for a couple generations.  The end of the Great Depression, was however, an inevitability given the energy booms just around the signpost up ahead - at that time.  No such energy panaceas in store for us.
Not to mention, the massive population overshoots that have taken place over the intervening decades as a result of detritovore agriculture in which oil energy has fueled the global breadbasket crop overproduction.

So.., once this next economic depression starts, there's likely to be no end in sight. 

As far as the mainstream goes, I believe we're already a deeply engrained part of the mainstream.  I simply want to ensure that our bargaining position is maximized along every possible criterion of fitness.  At this juncture, that is decidedly NOT the case.  However, I see opportunity to shore up and improve our position within the mainstream, of which we are a part, in what is admittedly a cut throat political climate. 

This is a streetfight P6.  In a streetfight, it always pays to be preemptive, ruthless, and final. 

P I don't exactly get at what you are trying to get at, but let me try.

As to your rhetorical question on what and who we are if oppression ends, as it relates to the American version of racism?

I actually think that as the current demographic and power structure exist, this version of racism will be "ever present." And that probably regardless of whose running things folks are going to exercise some measure of "oppresion" too maintain that control. Its just human nature, it seems, to do so.Therefore, your hypothetical is incongruent, based on this assumption of mine.

But if it should disappear, I suspect I'd be a less burdened brutha. That is, "less burdened" by the weigh of racial baggage of being potential perp/rapist at every turn or activity; less burdened by the assumption that I'm too stupid or too ignorant to understand anything solely because I'm a Black American male; less burdened because based on my credentials, I would be treated as fairly as any, and everyone else, when competing for a job or school.  Is this what you are getting at.

Spence, I think one can determine whose legal or not by investigating any indusry that tends to hire illegals and focus resources accordingly. I think the data is wquiote clear on where these folks work and who is hiring them. So they eother have the requisite documents or they don't.

Since white folks don't seem to have a problem locking Negroes en mass for transgressing US laws for whatever reason or circumstance, why the difference for these illegals. It would sure generate a bunch of jobs, as have been the situation for the mass incarceration of American Blacks, in an effort to boost rural American economies as a result of de-industrialization, for the last two decades or more. And of course, following the Civil War.

Finally, I know quite a few bruthas and others, that have been sent back to caribbean for having transgressed US law, yet no one seems to mind this. But some peole are raising holly hell so that the illegals in focus now are not rendered the same fate,. It is hypocritical and just plan wrong. Actually its a kind of self hatred that is all too situated in our community and pyche.

What type of state/federal/local resources are going to be required to actually send "illegals" back to where they came from?

Sylvestre Reyes on Washington Journal this morning indicated some multiple of the present allotment.  There are 57,000 cops in NYC and 12,000 cops in the Border Patrol.  I'd like to see as many buffalo soldiers as possible get on that beefed up Border Patrol and on the enlarged INS.

How exactly are you going to be able to know when someone is being railroaded because they offended someone, or because they didn't give up the ass?

The needs of the many outweigh the privations of the few.  Sorry, rational nationalism in practice here. (oh, I also calculate in the eggregious strategic blunder that the Iraq invasion will turn out to have been.  I have always considered it to have been stupid, immoral and wrong.  But, we are where we are now, and it is incumbent upon us to predicate our political calculus on the actual rather than preferable exigencies.)

But if it should disappear, I suspect I'd be a less burdened brutha. That is, "less burdened" by the weigh of racial baggage of being potential perp/rapist at every turn or activity; less burdened by the assumption that I'm too stupid or too ignorant to understand anything solely because I'm a Black American male; less burdened because based on my credentials, I would be treated as fairly as any, and everyone else, when competing for a job or school.  Is this what you are getting at.

No. What I'm getting at is, who and what you are is independant of racism. If it's not, you are doomed.

As far as the mainstream goes, I believe we're already a deeply engrained part of the mainstream.  I simply want to ensure that our bargaining position is maximized along every possible criterion of fitness.

Ah. Militant assimilationism.

G' the phrase "the needs of the many outweigh the privations of the few" and your call to "rational nationalism" don't mean anything....literally.  They are catchphrases that act as a substitute for argument. 

"Some multiple."  What multiple?  If I am reading things correctly not only are beefed up border patrols required, but significant resources would have to be spent towards patrolling workforces, schools, churches, neighborhoods, anywhere "illegals" would be expected to "congregate." 

Further, the state would be required to spend the money required to send them back.  Which in itself requires more people, another level of bureaucracy, more vehicles, more gasoline, etc.

There are some real comparisons to be made between this proposal and the Fugitive Slave Act. 

But even if we ignore those comparisons for a moment, you still have yet to tell me exactly how we're going to differentiate between "illegals" and "legals." 

And given our financial state as a nation, I'd also like to know where the money comes from? 

G' the phrase "the needs of the many outweigh the privations of the few" and your call to "rational nationalism" don't mean anything....literally.  They are catchphrases that act as a substitute for argument.

True.

If "rational nationalism" (the only one of the two that isn't too cynical to live) has any meaning, it's "nationalism that makes sense."

The whole way this issue is being discussed nationally makes no sense. This is an economic issue being framed as a civil rights issue that will be resolved as a political issue.

Rational anything, much less nationalism, has little place here.

Spence I wish I could take credit for the rational nationalism as laid out by CN but I can't. However, on your point that the state being hampered by more spending in sending these people back. Let me assure that if it was 11 million 'illegally entered' Zulus we were discussing, they would surely find the requisite resources to send them back. And I got a funny feeling that you would not be making the same strenuous argument in behalf of these folks, the Zulus, as you've shown in the Detroit "Little Africa" matter.

But as I pointed earliar,  folks are being repatriated back to their home countries now, and for the last decade that have transgressed US laws. Are you saying that its okay for Mexicans and other latins, who have entered the nation illegally, and therefore,  flouted US law, to stay?

Finally, P we are all doomed. Don't you know that? I bet you can't name me one person that has not died or have the potential of not dying, so I don't get your point, still!

There are some real comparisons to be made between this proposal and the Fugitive Slave Act.

So make them then already..., and be sure to explain to me why I need to care given my full citizen/non-slave status within the empire?

But even if we ignore those comparisons for a moment, you still have yet to tell me exactly how we're going to differentiate between "illegals" and "legals."

They're ignored because they're irrelevant.  Just as I don't hold black soldiers culpable for their participation in the empire's criminal Iraq misadventure.

And given our financial state as a nation, I'd also like to know where the money comes from?

Money is a symbol for energy.  You tell us where the actual additional energy is going to come from to increase the carrying capacity of the finite territorial commons within the U.S. border? 

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya....., oh lord kumbaya.....,

The whole way this issue is being discussed nationally makes no sense. This is an economic issue being framed as a civil rights issue that will be resolved as a political issue.

Rational anything, much less nationalism, has little place here.

Principally because you and Spence refuse to bring it down to the level of carrying capacity in a finite space with finite energy resources.  Your version of economics is mythopoetic, a nice symbolic just-so story and belief system.  If you want this to be a clinically rational discussion - make your arguments quantitative and real.  Otherwise, all you're doing is moralizing without regard to physical context. 

People of the word....., harumph!!!!

Principally because you and Spence refuse to bring it down to the level of carrying capacity in a finite space with finite energy resources.

That's not the current state of affairs. This issue will be "resolved" politically.

When you're talking about humans, thermodynamics is a metaphor. Get real. You're proposing unenforceable laws against people , when actually enforcing the laws against employers is the only way to accomplish what you claim the goal is...controlling illegal immigration.

That's a political issue. Not a thermodynamic one.

Since the dollar went off the gold standard decades ago, what physical *something* has been the standard on which the value of the dollar is based?  (black gold, texas tea...., the reason cats are putting in work in Iraq!)

Money Is Not Energy
Energy companies are in business to make money – not energy. For example, economic subsidies allow ethanol companies to waste energy while making a profit. Specifically, about 71% more energy is used to produce a gallon of ethanol than the energy contained in a gallon of ethanol. [[24]] Obviously, alternative energy technologies that require energy subsidies are only viable as long as we don't need them!  From the standpoint of achieving society’s goal of a long-term solution to our energy problems, profit is simply the wrong objective for energy companies. Even without direct and indirect subsidies of $650 billion a year [[25]] it's conceivable that energy companies could make money – but lose energy – by burning one $10-barrel of oil today in order to pump one-half of a $50-barrel tomorrow. The price of oil is expected to rise sharply – and permanently – when global oil production peaks in less than ten years.

Economists Can't See It Coming
"Energy" is defined as the capacity of a physical system to do work. Over a hundred years ago, scientists pointed out that energy – not money – is the true source of the capitalist's wealth:   It is, in fact, the fate of all kinds of energy of position to be ultimately converted into energy of motion. The former may be compared to money in a bank, or capital, the latter to money which we are in the act of spending ...

If we pursue the analogy a step further, we shall see that the great capitalist is respected because he has the disposal of a great quantity of energy; and that whether he be nobleman or sovereign, or a general in command, he is powerful only from having something which enables him to make use of the services of others. When a man of wealth pays a labouring man to work for him, he is in truth converting so much of his energy of position into actual energy...The world of mechanism is not a manufactory, in which energy is created, but rather a mart, into which we may bring energy of one kind and change or barter it for an equivalent of another kind, that suits us better - but if we come with nothing in hand, with nothing we will most assuredly return. [Balfour Stewart, 1883] [[26]]

How's that political solution working for you in Iraq brah?

The empire is a republic, for the capitalist and by the capitalist.  Stop acting like this is a popular democracy when it's obvious on so many levels that it's not. 

P6, on this point I agreed. If truly and effectively enforced, employer sanctions  will go allllllooonnggggg way in curtaling illegal immigration, and of course, effective border interdictione efforts. Finally,  of course more competent governing in the states of origin of these folks will go along way also, so that they are forced to trek away from their homes and families in the first place!

Uh oh, on your last point CN you are correct too. Damn!

The empire is a republic, for the capitalist and by the capitalist.  Stop acting like this is a popular democracy when it's obvious on so many levels that it's not.

You should stop acting like I'm saying something I'm not.

How's that political solution working for you in Iraq brah?

Better than your attempt to change the subject...which is to say it's really fucked up in Iraq.

But feel free to keep promoting impossible-to-enforce-laws while trying to put other people on blast for being unrealistic.

Kenyatta: my book project is about precisely the family unification issue raised by your associate...that's my last pillar...we'll have to kick it later on that. I call it Reconciliation.

Better than your attempt to change the subject...which is to say it's really fucked up in Iraq.

And no amount of political belly-aching is going to make a damn bit of difference about it one way or another.  Those permanent forward bases are under construction in Iraq because the people who comprise the actual capitalist producer class here have taken the decision that that oil is theirs. Possession is 99% of the law - and that oil backs these dollars. 

But feel free to keep promoting impossible-to-enforce-laws while trying to put other people on blast for being unrealistic.

You think?  If it was trivial to accomplish in the 30's, what will make it more difficult today?  Let the housing bubble burst, let things heat up in the Straights of Hormuz, let one of any number of variables come to fruition that negatively impact this fragile economy and I'll bet you any amount you care to wager - that you'll see a domestic re-enactment of anti-Mexican vigilantism the likes of which you can only imagine. 

The only thing I put people on blast for is sqeamishness about dealing rationally with the dark side of the crowd - given the overwhelming evidence at our disposal, and, squeamishness about coming to grips with the physical/infrastructural conditions under which we live, also given the overwhelming evidence at our disposal. 

When push comes to shove, I consider my prognosis as reflecting American societal inevitabilities.  So..., it can happen in an orderly manner via pre-emptive legislative act, or, it can happen to control the disorderly and violent backlash that will inevitably ensue when something hits the fan.   

Fine.

What's the topic of discussion now?

I just wanted to say a little somethin' about comic books...while I respect the medium and the tremendous content - I think it's fairly clear that designs for unimaginable worlds are being crafted through video games - especially online versions where people are doing shit like using AMERICAN FIAT MONEY to buy ITEMS IN AN ONLINE VIDEO GAME.  If you wanna talk about mugs living in another world - not simply positing its existence, but living - spending time, spending loot, talkin' shit, killin mugs (virtual death - but don't think cats haven't contemplated taking their games offline and actually icin' a mug or two or six - CSI Miami wouldn't have run the episode if someone had kicked it.)...So the intellectual creativity and content of comic books is still above reproach, but the world has moved on in many respects.  It's kinda like this lame-ass version of rap muhfukkas still inadvertently call hip hop - ain't no DJs to be seen nowheres - but there's plenty of CDs with pre-fab beats.  The significant difference being the considerable work that goes into designing these games...they take comic books to the 4th dimension - and where would you rather be???  Planet Hulk that, sisssssssseeeeeeees!!!!!

You know I'm on that X-Clan shiznit.  I don't know about the modern-day anti-lyrical, rap hypothetical cats...scraight oldskool like the DeLa...

I haven't weighed in because this shit took all damn day to read...you see I had to come in on the comic book tip...LOMF'nL.

Aiight.  Here I go.  Wish me luck.  It seems to me that the first consideration for black partisans is, "What's in the best interest of Black folk?"  It seems to me that is what defines a black partisan...That's always a loaded question, but it is imperative that a critical mass of us feel that we have the right to ask and answer the question (ideally in an iterative and collaborative process that engages community).  On the face of it - all other issues aside (including the actual legality or fairness of the law; who applies or enforces the law;  etc.)  The simple second question is, "Will the outcome be favorable, unfavorable or otherwise for black folk?"  Given that we are not a monolith, the answer may not easy, hell, it may be forthcoming at all.

Dig.  I won't rehash cuz done hashed...but I want to say that on it's face, cnu's argument is compelling because it answers these two questions in an affirmative and quantitatively defensible manner - to me.  Does that make it a moral position?  Nope.  Does he suggest that's the position?  Nope.  Does it matter?  Maybe.  Not to me.  It doesn't matter to me because of reasons I have not heard delineated here.  It's really quite simple for me.

Let's assume we were not in the Empire, but in some other locale in which we would still be Black Partisans.  Imagine a variety of economic conditions in which we might find ourselves.  It seems to me that the only position in which to argue in favor of the benefit of illegal immigration is from that of an employer seeking cheap labor.  In a non-capitalist system, an influx of cheap labor is unlikely unless it's fueled by a natural or political disaster (as in the case of Rwanda).  Therefore, it seems difficult to argue in favor of an economic position that undermines the collective position of black folk.  Beyond the borders of the United States, similar imperatives would obtain.  In a humanitarian crisis, the responsibility to support and preserve supercedes the responsibility to hire and pardon.  Therefore, I believe the relative positions of white folks on this issue to be largely irrelevant for this discussion.  I could be wrong here, but I see them as purely tangential - even though white folks might appear to be driving the conversation.

La Raza Unida - Mexican nationalism is as alive and well as any other nationalism.  I didn't root for Chavez to kick the shit out of Pernell Whitaker or Meldrick Taylor or any other black fighter.  That may not mean much, but it means I'd have to stretch to argue that Mexican labor should have the upper hand in competition with Black labor.  I'm not willing to go there.  I would argue, however, that Mexicans don't pose THE primary challenge to black folk, but their ability to depress wages in the labor market poses a significant challenge.  nulan said we can't win the numbers game, but we can win the excellence game.  more of us have to begin to play that game - because the next competitor at the door is not mexican.  Mexicans would not even begin to entertain the notion of employing and supporting large numbers of black folk in Mexico.  Does that matter?  It should.  On a certain level.  When you can't expect reciprocity, and there is common ground on an issue with an external group, you have to be crystal clear about the nature of your support.  As such, it's not clear for me where the support of a Mexican economic agenda would end for kenyatta or keto.  To me, that needs to be expressed before going forward - because if unfettered immigration and all that that entails is okay, then the supports and the tax burden and the socio-economic safety net competition is also okay...and if that's okay, then the parameters of the coalition need to be rearticulated because at present there is a significant mismatch between blacks and Mexicans.

I'm wondering how we all feel about illegal Chinese labor.  The Chinese are holding $262 billion in US Treasury debt.  It appears they need lots of oil.  I'm sure they've already figured out that the Euro is a superior currency to the dollar (keto), but have been unable to supplant the protection racket the US has extended over the House of Saud.  The Chinese and Japanese are not as slow as you think.  But they can't fight for shit...at least not now. 

A final note on black partisanship: I think it's important to consider these issues without considering white folks as much as we seem to do.  Take our special case:  as a collective, we've been in this land longer than any other collective - aside from the indigenous peoples.  If our interests in the land don't supercede our relationship with white folks and the US government, then what's the point.  Are all of our considerations merely as appendages?  An authentic relationship with this land (and its borders) must reckon with a staunch Mexican nationalism that has every intention of intruding on those borders by any means necessary.  And that may very well be cool because these borders were established through military competition.  Nonetheless, black partisan does not mean black US partisan - or does it.  If you favor unfettered immigration as a matter of principle, I think the first question matters.  If you pass on the question for pragmatic reasons (ie. LKS' position that the burden is too much to bear), then it appears to me that the real work ahead is transforming the current dynamics of intergroup coalitions.

Holla!

"I'd like to have some straight up ham-handed discussion/consideration of the implications for us of ~12 Million undocumented mexicans working and living in the estados unidos."

  P6 I'm shocked.  Shocked I say, to see that your poll suggests 5% or fewer give a damn about coalition building with other ethnic groups as a pressing priority for us.  (fyi - only one out of ~30 partisans surveyed at the learning center came down on Cardinal Mahoney's side too)

What have you cats been schmoking to get so jarringly out of touch with the folks on this issue?  What practical, historical, or evidentiary interactions support the sentimental representations I've read on this thread?  I mean damn, Spence flailing about with the Fugitive Slave Act, like a prof at J.Hopkins gonna get beatdown by a paddyroller if this law gets some teeth put into it? 

Y'all funny sometimes.....,

If you pass on the question for pragmatic reasons (ie. LKS' position that the burden is too much to bear), then it appears to me that the real work ahead is transforming the current dynamics of intergroup coalitions.

I'm more sanguine about the present moment's possibilities for black partisan coalition building with the WPW - simple as that.  Common ground is increasingly clear because the curtain has NEVER been flung this wide open on the corporatist machinations screwing them as badly as these machinations screw us.  Polls suggest and interpersonal communion confirms that a much higher percentage of WPW have learned to eschew their former belief in George Bush. Couple this with the fact that they can't spend, eat, pay medical bills, or heat their homes with an inflated sense of white privilege - I believe a charismatic thought leader could go great guns on advancing a substantive, inclusive, American agenda. 

That, in and of itself, would substantively alter the status quo.

I'm not so big on coalitions.  I know they're effective (at times) and that the whole can be greater than the sum of the parts - but it ain't really me.

cnulan, no one thinks building partnerships is the primary need. This is correct, in my opinion. It is a technique. Sadly, confusing technique with goal is a current problem with a lot of folks.

Similarly, you won't find many Black folks (other than the 2%) setting integration as a primary goal, but you won't find many setting isolation as a primary goal either.

You still haven't made a suggestion on the immigration issue you raised that has a possibility of working. I have...go after the employers.

You want to seal the border, take a look at the DMZ on the Korean peninsula. Extend that across the entire southern border to get an idea of what's required to seal a border with no legitimate commerce passing through it. Now think of what you have to do to deal with the freight trucks...which NAFTA has already empowered to move as freely as any American truck.

If every illegal applied for citizenship today, they'd have the same 5-6 year process, the same criteria to meet (a relative or spouse, financial support guaranteed by a job or family). That, plus a fine for the previous lawbreaking, is pretty much the most liberal suggestion around for dealing with the people. These folks will gain skills, do better...and be replaced by more immigrants from SOMEwhere, getting paid somewhere between the local wage in their homeland and our minimum wage.

You cannot control immigration like that. And if you insist on doing that, it's not immigration control you're after.

Yes, I'm lazy and copied it from the Intrapolitics.org comments.

Cut and bass!

The Fugitive Slave Law created an extra police-state layer to what was already an oppressive regime.   It forced free blacks to carry passes to "prove" their freedom--and of course even then it didn't matter.  It overloaded states and the federal government by creating more layers of bureaucracy that existed solely to surveil and police black bodies...and to the extent that whites helped them WHITE bodies.  You were thought to be harboring blacks w